cash game newbie, some hands to comment on

Okay well I honestly don't know whether what I'm doing is good or bad. I don't know if I'm betting enough or too much on any street, I don't know whether my folds are good or bad, etc, etc. So the following is just a few hands that I'm interested in, please let me know what I can change or of any mistakes I made here.

I am most interested in betting amounts. Too much? Too little? I want to know. Also, please assume no significant reads.



1)
PokerStars Game #6887125062: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/04 - 02:38:41 (ET)
Table 'Dejopeja II' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: roland1952 ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Texan Tez ($7.85 in chips)
Seat 3: seadragon68 ($6.45 in chips)
Seat 4: mjoo82 ($25 in chips)
Seat 5: Rafvdv ($81.95 in chips)
Seat 6: CoyoteUp ($11.75 in chips)
Seat 7: courtiebee ($24.10 in chips)
Seat 8: BostonAK_617 ($15.40 in chips)
Seat 9: illini777 ($23.25 in chips)
roland1952: posts small blind $0.10
Texan Tez: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [4d 4c]
seadragon68: folds
mjoo82: folds
Rafvdv: folds
CoyoteUp: calls $0.25
courtiebee: calls $0.25
BostonAK_617: folds
illini777: calls $0.25
roland1952: calls $0.15
Texan Tez: checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc 2h Jc]
roland1952: checks
Texan Tez: checks
CoyoteUp: checks
courtiebee: checks
illini777: checks
*** TURN *** [Tc 2h Jc] [4s]
roland1952: checks
Texan Tez: checks
CoyoteUp: checks
courtiebee: bets $1
illini777: calls $1
roland1952: folds
Texan Tez: folds
CoyoteUp: folds
*** RIVER *** [Tc 2h Jc 4s] [6c]
courtiebee: checks
illini777: bets $2.50
courtiebee: folds
illini777 collected $3.10 from pot
illini777: doesn't show hand


2)
PokerStars Game #6892412591: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/04 - 15:17:07 (ET)
Table 'Dunant' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: crazyt74 ($25.65 in chips)
Seat 2: FASTER1 ($13.95 in chips)
Seat 4: Johnthestraw ($31.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Ormega ($5.80 in chips)
Seat 6: Poker Ogre ($5.80 in chips)
Seat 7: DonGull ($48.75 in chips)
Seat 8: EyeScreamMan ($25.15 in chips)
Seat 9: courtiebee ($29 in chips)
EyeScreamMan: posts small blind $0.10
courtiebee: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [Ad Qs]
crazyt74: folds
FASTER1: calls $0.25
Johnthestraw: calls $0.25
Ormega: calls $0.25
Poker Ogre: folds
DonGull: folds
EyeScreamMan: calls $0.15
courtiebee: checks
*** FLOP *** [3c Ac Jd]
EyeScreamMan: checks
courtiebee: bets $1
FASTER1: raises $2.25 to $3.25
Johnthestraw: folds
Ormega: raises $2.30 to $5.55 and is all-in
EyeScreamMan: folds
courtiebee: folds


3)
PokerStars Game #6892530196: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/04 - 15:27:05 (ET)
Table 'Mirach' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: GrillSwill ($23.65 in chips)
Seat 2: so so suited ($26.25 in chips)
Seat 4: anyone1 ($25 in chips)
Seat 5: Vitja83 ($15.25 in chips)
Seat 6: grixy ($23.20 in chips)
Seat 7: Krassancho ($24.05 in chips)
Seat 8: Tugas_02 ($40.35 in chips)
Seat 9: courtiebee ($23.90 in chips)
GrillSwill: posts small blind $0.10
so so suited: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [8s 8h]
anyone1: folds
Vitja83: folds
grixy: folds
Krassancho: calls $0.25
Tugas_02: folds
courtiebee: calls $0.25
GrillSwill: calls $0.15
so so suited: checks
*** FLOP *** [Th 8d 4d]
GrillSwill: checks
so so suited: checks
Krassancho: checks
courtiebee: bets $0.70
GrillSwill: folds
so so suited: raises $0.70 to $1.40
Krassancho: folds
courtiebee: raises $4.60 to $6
so so suited: folds
courtiebee collected $3.65 from pot


4)
Fold, right?

PokerStars Game #6892741717: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/04 - 15:44:26 (ET)
Table 'Mirach' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: GrillSwill ($25 in chips)
Seat 3: jsim1020 ($25.25 in chips)
Seat 4: anyone1 ($19.70 in chips)
Seat 5: Vitja83 ($14.05 in chips)
Seat 7: Krassancho ($26.80 in chips)
Seat 8: Tugas_02 ($38.45 in chips)
Seat 9: courtiebee ($27.25 in chips)
anyone1: posts small blind $0.10
Vitja83: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [Ks Qd]
Krassancho: folds
Tugas_02: folds
courtiebee: raises $0.75 to $1
GrillSwill: folds
jsim1020: calls $1
anyone1: folds
Vitja83: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d Qc Js]
courtiebee: bets $1.25
jsim1020: raises $2.75 to $4
courtiebee:


5)
PokerStars Game #6905576200: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/05 - 15:00:02 (ET)
Table 'Apollo 11' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: courtiebee ($28.55 in chips)
Seat 3: kahnyoung ($13.40 in chips)
Seat 4: jupa02 ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Wearingblue ($25 in chips)
Seat 6: NoResticance ($5.55 in chips)
Seat 7: DDDDDDD22 ($20.10 in chips)
Seat 8: cawaz ($18.85 in chips)
jupa02: posts small blind $0.10
Wearingblue: posts big blind $0.25
TimTolle: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [2c 3c]
NoResticance: folds
DDDDDDD22: calls $0.25
cawaz: calls $0.25
courtiebee: calls $0.25
kahnyoung: calls $0.25
jupa02: folds
Wearingblue: checks
*** FLOP *** [4c 6c Ac]
Wearingblue: checks
DDDDDDD22: bets $0.50
cawaz: calls $0.50
courtiebee: raises $3.50 to $4
kahnyoung: folds
Wearingblue: folds
DDDDDDD22: calls $3.50
cawaz: folds
*** TURN *** [4c 6c Ac] [4d]
DDDDDDD22: checks
courtiebee: bets $7
DDDDDDD22: folds
courtiebee collected $9.40 from pot
courtiebee: doesn't show hand


6)
Check? Bet? What's my plan here? Or maybe don't play the hand at all?

PokerStars Game #6905997605: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/11/05 - 15:36:17 (ET)
Table 'Apollo 11' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: courtiebee ($31.35 in chips)
Seat 2: messa ($27.10 in chips)
Seat 4: jupa02 ($25.70 in chips)
Seat 5: Wearingblue ($25 in chips)
Seat 6: NoResticance ($5.20 in chips)
Seat 7: korean13 ($17.40 in chips)
Seat 8: cawaz ($3.30 in chips)
courtiebee: posts small blind $0.10
messa: posts big blind $0.25
Nector33: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to courtiebee [Ad 2d]
jupa02: folds
Wearingblue: raises $0.75 to $1
NoResticance: folds
korean13: calls $1
cawaz: calls $1
courtiebee: calls $0.90
messa: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [6h 5d Td]
courtiebee:

1) Turn bet is good sized, you want to build the pot. On the river I would bet about $1.75 or $2 and fold to a re-raise.

2) Fine

3) Re-raise amount is fine, sometimes I will just call to conceal.

4) I'd fold - this could be a semi-bluff, but without a read and out of position, you could be way behind.

5) Fine

6) Assuming you can get away from Ace high flop (no draw), playing this hand is fine.

Since you are out of position, you can't buy a free card. With 5 people in pot you could build a pot with 1/3-1/2 pot bets, but if preflop raiser is aggro you might get pushed off your hand. Check/call with a flush draw usually isn't good since donks shut down when the 3rd diamond comes.
I'd bet $2.25 and fold to a huge reraise.



Your bets in all hands are fine imo. I'm sure you know to overbet with your strong hands and don't commit yourself with vulnerable hands. Good luck.

1) Fine. I don't mind overbetting the pot on the turn when there's so little money in the pot. I find overbets still get called a lot since they look suspicious. Tempting to call the river, but without a read a fold is fine.

2) Raise pre-flop. As played it's pretty tempting to get it AI against two shorties, but a fold is fine too.

3) Raise pre-flop! As played, I only raise flop to $5 (that's pot-sized) but that's nitpicky.

4) Without a read, and assuming you haven't been splashing many pots, it's a fold.

5) I raise the flop a little less, but this is fine.

6) I don't play this hand from the blinds. Your flush is obv if it hits, so it won't get paid that often. And your low straight rarely hits and isn't the nuts if it does. Lots of options on the flop. I don't mind a 1/2 pot lead to try to take it down or build the pot for your draw, like Vladster suggested. I also really like a c/r here, or a c/f if the action gets crazy.

i don't get why you are raising KQo in crappy position but not 88 on the button

hands 1-4 i think are fine. In hand 5 I'm checking behind on the turn because I don't expect a worse hand to call 3 barrels, thus I don't really want to play for stacks. I'd bet 7 on a blank river when checked to and expect a call from an ace like always.
In hand 6, you should probably check and see what develops since there are 5 people in the pot. If there are only 2-3 people in the pot, my line is bet 1/2 pot then 3bet if raised, as long as the pfr isnt a complete station. However, I wouldnt be playing A2s oop with only one other caller anyway.

5. Fold preflop

Noted that I shouldn't be playing the A2s hand in the first place. Thanks.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

i don't get why you are raising KQo in crappy position but not 88 on the button

Because I don't know wtf I'm doing? That's the truth

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

5. Fold preflop

Always?

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

5. Fold preflop

Always?

pretty much

Originally Posted by Nitty McNitterson

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Originally Posted by Nitty McNitterson

5. Fold preflop

Always?

pretty much

lol whatever

*ahem* start playing 6 max. More hands = more $$$$$ *ahem*

hand 1) standard, bet sizing is fine. pot, 3/4 pot, use your imagination. If the game was generally deeper, especially the open limper, raising preflop would probably be better.

hand 2) I'd probably jack this baby up to $2 preflop but I'm a craaaaaaazy mofo. Checking is also fine and probably the more standard play. By raising, not only are you attacking the dead money in the pot, defending your blind, but you are also severely cutting off an opponent's implied odds if they have, say, 22. If you have AA in this spot, you're looking to get it all-in preflop on the majority of boards. KKx, JT9, and similar scary boards are obvious exceptions, ditto when the 12/4 nit starts playing back at you.

Looks like a solid fold on the flop. OOP in a multiway limped pot, this isn't much of a hand (especially if the game were playing deeper).

3) preflop = ewwwwww. Easy raise. 88 is like a premium hand here compared to the garbage you could profitably raise here on the button. If he check/raises you in a [edit: raised] pot, you can 3-bet push the flop or call and get it in on any turn (the former being probably more ideal because you could push a pretty wide range of made hands/draws as well).

4) yeah, fold.

5) Flop raise seems pretty standard. I wanted to check behind on the turn because that 4 is a pretty nasty card for your hand, and even if you're hand is still good (assuming it already was, which it may not have been), you will rarely get paid off by a worse hand now. He might chase his Kc though if he's really bad and doesn't realize that you could easily have 66 here. Highly player dependant I guess. I would fold preflop and not think twice about it.

6) figure out a way to get all-in on the flop while giving yourself some fold equity and trying to trap some dead money in the pot in the meantime. Perhaps bet/3bet allin, or check/push, or something. An option you may want to consider (and probably a bad one considering the nature of low stakes games and the fact that you probably want to keep variance manageable being a relatively new NL ring player) is squeezing preflop... ie making it $6 to go or something similar that you would do with a big pair or AK type hand. If called (especially by the original raiser), you would often give up on the flop unless you hit it big (ie NFD, aces up, tripping the kicker, etc). *to make it clear, I think this is a poor spot to do it with such a weak hand, hence why I would do it and feel good/badass about doing it*

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Noted that I shouldn't be playing the A2s hand in the first place. Thanks.

Suited aces are great - keep playing them. You also got a dream flop in that hand, so you want to get your money in fast as one of the earlier posters said.

It's your 2c 3c hand you need to fold preflop. Suited connectors are great in multiway pots because of their versatility - the possibilities of straights and flushes etc. The problem with such low SC's as 2-3 is that you'll never ever be drawing to the nuts. Why pay money for a draw that is not necessarily going to be the best hand?

Originally Posted by handsomestan

Originally Posted by courtiebee

Noted that I shouldn't be playing the A2s hand in the first place. Thanks.

Suited aces are great - keep playing them. You also got a dream flop in that hand, so you want to get your money in fast as one of the earlier posters said.

It's your 2c 3c hand you need to fold preflop. Suited connectors are great in multiway pots because of their versatility - the possibilities of straights and flushes etc. The problem with such low SC's as 2-3 is that you'll never ever be drawing to the nuts. Why pay money for a draw that is not necessarily going to be the best hand?

your flush draws with other sc's will never be drawing to the nuts either

Yeah - I'm referring to the straight.

havent read replies yet, here's my first impressions:

1. bet 1.5 on riv, fold to more than a min-raise. a lot of worse hands will call, and others will just minraise.. the nuts will usually push.

2. raise preflop 4bb+1bb/limper. as played you are probably beat, so fold is good.

3. i liek to see pp's with a raised pot. so i'll usually call someone's raise or raise it myself. as played ok.

4. 1.50 on flop. 1.25 seems weak. too close to what they called to see the flop.

5. nh

6. check/call. you dont want to get raised/reraised out of it.

Originally Posted by handsomestan

Yeah - I'm referring to the straight.

On an A45 board 23 is the nuts. A2 are the only connectors that can't make a nut straight.

He said drawing to the nuts, and I assume he ignored the gut shot straight, since thats a crappy draw.

Most everyone agrees that 23s is a fold.
Let me refocus the attention on hand 6.

Assume you are getting great odds to call preflop, even though you are out of position. What is the best line to take?

- Check/call
- Bet/call or bet/fold
- Bet/All-in

Originally Posted by ThelVlaster

He said drawing to the nuts, and I assume he ignored the gut shot straight, since thats a crappy draw.

Umm... how is drawing with 32s with a T54 board different than with 98s on a JT4 board? Both draws have four outs to the nut straight and four outs to the second nut straight. The reason to bias your play toward higher suited connectors is so that your pairs, two pairs and flushes have more showdown value, not because "you'll never ever be drawing to the nuts".

As for your question about hand 6, with five players, I like a check and re-evaluate. Fold to a lot of action, call if you're getting good odds, raise with a read if you think you have fold equity.

The reason I play 54s+ on the button or CO is because there are more possibilities for the OESD.

Flops for 54:
76x
63x
32x

But the best draw flop for 32 is
54x

And 43 is
65x
52x

I aggree with everything you have said zook.

By the way, you aren't Ron Zook, the NCAA football coach, are you? :P I go to UF, and poker as a hobby might explain the lackluster performance before he was fired.

Courtie is so popular here ;D...

Nothing too much to add as there have already been some great responses, but:

Hand no. 1. I lead/block the river. Betting more on the turn is OK too.

No. 2. Lukie's post is spot on. One thing to note here is that AQo plays quite poorly in a multiway pot. Throw in OOP and it's much simpler to raise here, which might earn you the limped blinds anyways. At the very least, it should cut out the worst of the gutter clutter.

I'm raising AQo here the vast majority of the time.

No. 3 I would generally raise. Again, you might pick up the limps or blinds with a raise. If you tend to open raise/ follow w/cbet frequently, you may eventually get people playing back at you because you're FoS. When you flop a set of 8s against someone who thinks you're full of it... you get paid.

5 and 6 are preflop folds for me. Yes, suited aces are pretty, but it's very hard to draw OOP, esp in a raised pot.

I love Lukie's advice on #6 (with sandwiches and play hyperaggro) but I think a lot of it doesn't apply to 25NL. You'll often get called when you're putting it in with the worst of it.

Pffft.

I call Hand 2... if they have 2 pair, oh wells. They 90% of the time don't have AK... Honestly at this level people will do that with Ax... both of them. Also, the second guy has a high chance of being on two clubs.

Everyone else says fold but I say calllllllllllll. O wait he has more money to put in... i push!

Originally Posted by ThelVlaster

The reason I play 54s+ on the button or CO is because there are more possibilities for the OESD.

Definitely. I should have mentioned that too.

I'm not Ron Zook Zook is an old nickname, my real name is Zach.

Originally Posted by zook

Originally Posted by ThelVlaster

He said drawing to the nuts, and I assume he ignored the gut shot straight, since thats a crappy draw.

Umm... how is drawing with 32s with a T54 board different than with 98s on a JT4 board? Both draws have four outs to the nut straight and four outs to the second nut straight.

To flop an open ended (8 out) straight draw whilst holding 2-3s the board MUST contain 4-5. They are the only cards that will give this draw.

Holding 98s, however, the board can contain any combination of T-J, 7-T, or 6-7. You have three times as much chance of flopping this draw.

Thats the difference.

Originally Posted by handsomestan

To flop an open ended (8 out) straight draw whilst holding 2-3s the board MUST contain 4-5. They are the only cards that will give this draw.

Holding 98s, however, the board can contain any combination of T-J, 7-T, or 6-7. You have three times as much chance of flopping this draw.

Thats the difference.

Agreed. Just disagreed with your original post. Sorry for the hijack.

Hand 1: If you're going to check this river, insta-call. I would bet/fold.
Hand 2: The 3rd guy in the pot doesn't concern me. It depends on what I think about FASTER1 and how the table is playing. I probably only fold because it's unraised multi-way.
Hand 3: $4 gets the job done.
Hand 4: Fold without a read.
Hand 5: LOL, Ni Han. I usually put him on an Ace and check the turn behind. Depends on what I think of him. I also fold this turkey pre-flop. 46s/45s are the smallest connectors I usually play.
Hand 6: Check. I often fold this pre-flop unless there is someone in the hand that I want to gamble with.

Originally Posted by Lukie

3) preflop = ewwwwww. Easy raise. 88 is like a premium hand here compared to the garbage you could profitably raise here on the button.

Over-looked this (wall of text for the loss.) Stupid-easy value raise pre-flop. If you raise pre-flop, Tx will often feel pot-struck by the time the post-flop aggression gets to the point where he figures his hand is no good.

Tourney donks stack off with top pair in unraised pots. Most cash players need a pot to fight for before they start doing that.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Tourney donks stack off with top pair in unraised pots. Most cash players need a pot to fight for before they start doing that.

Definitely something I've known from the start and am trying to keep in my brain as I sit and mindlessly fold hands for 5 hours straight ... I think I overdo it though.

When you raise 88 on the button pre-flop, lots of great things happen for you. Particularly against passive opponents.

o You build a pot to stack off a wider range of hands when you hit your set. Also with a built pot you have more room to be tricky to get it all-in.
o You might win the pot with a flop bet.
o You might get to freeroll turn + river cards on your flop bet to suck out and win a medium to big pot depending on how well you read hands, etc.
o You might get called by a hand with less showdown value on the flop and check down the turn + river (or if you read hands well enough pick him off on the river.)

By not raising pre-flop, you're brining the blinds into the hand, but now it's going to be harder to win a pot unimproved and when you do improve you need to ram and jam every street to get it all-in and have more pressure to read turn + river cards to guess if they completed a draw.

If you understand and apply this concept it's almost enough on it's own to beat a lot of online games up to the 100NL level or so.

Thank you for that awesome post, Fnord.