Cbetting into a solid tag.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($55.25)
UTG ($48.25)
UTG+1 ($69.45)
MP1 ($59.40)
MP2 ($44.75)
CO ($80.40)
Button ($51.35)
givememyleg ($51.65)

Preflop: givememyleg is SB with A, K.
6 folds, givememyleg raises to $2, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4) 4, 4, 8 (2 players)
givememyleg bets $2, BB calls $2.

Turn: ($8) 7 (2 players)
givememyleg bets $5, BB raises to $14, givememyleg folds.

I don't like my play here at all. But I find if I am OOP and cbet, if it gets called, my natural reaction to to check the turn. That seems to be the most common line for a missed cbet oop that I find myself doing. Should I just have checked the flop? Even though it seems weak to me, would check/folding the turn be a better option?

Oh btw I changed my seat from sitting on his right also.

I would probably bet about 4 one the flop and if called check the turn.

Originally Posted by Got Me Wrong

I would probably bet about 4 one the flop and if called check the turn.

See that's my point... that seems like a huuuuuuge tell that I cbet with air on the flop. If I check, I give him the flag to take it away. It looks weak imo to lead the flop, then check/fold the turn. This is why I am wondering if anyone thinks checking the flop is better? OOORRRR, is leading out, then checking the turn a reasonable line that many of you would take? Am I wrong thinking it is weak?

Yes but if he is a solid tagg i might just let him have it you only have ace high and if he is calling a psb theres a decent chance he could have some thing I think.

I like about 3/4 pot on the flop in spots like this. Sometimes I'll c/f the flop.

As played, on the turn, I'm usually c/f'ing and sometimes firing the 2nd barrell. Once you fire the 2nd barrell and he raises, there's absolutely nothing you can do.

sorry i couldnt be of more help

I think that cbet on the flop is fairly weak, Id be leading for $3 here. The problem with this is that BB could simply be putting you on a blind steal, so a semi-thinking player may be playing back at you with a wide range of hands, including air. Depending on your read, firing a second barrel isnt bad, but you have to fold to the raise unless you know he will defend his blind with anything, even then I wouldnt be too comfortable going much further.

I would bet $3 on that flop and if called roll over and die (assuming no ace or king on the turn). That is a drawless board; if he calls and he's really a TAgg, he's ahead of you. If he's playing back at you with nothing on this weirdo board after you raised OOP, you need to not sit in front of him anyway... find another seat or another table (as you said you did - good job). There are much easier pickin's out there than this guy if you suspect he was just messing with you.

By the way, my general strategy for a caller when I am OOP is this: c-bet the flop most of the time for about 2/3 - 3/4 pot. If they call, check the flop texture and see what they might be drawing to; also analyze how weak and callish they have been previously. If there's a likely draw that hasn't hit on the turn, and/or they have been prone to make a few weak calls followed by folds before, I'll fire again on the turn for at least 3/4 pot. I also like firing the second barrel better when an overcard hits on the turn, because even though it missed me, it may scare them off. Here's the perfect action for me to use a second c-bet:

me (UTG) - raises to 2.00 with AsKs
kind of loose guy (UTG+1) - calls
everyone else folds.

flop - 9d 7d 3c
me - 3.00 bet
him - calls

turn - Qs
me - 8.00 bet
him - folds, I hope.

You can see this meets all my criteria pretty much. 1. Opponent is kind of loose and callish. 2. Flop was draw-friendly and mostly low or middle cards. 3. Turn was an offsuit overcard that doesn't help the obvious draws out there.

For not firing a second barrel, I have the reverse criteria: 1. Opponent is tight and aware. 2. Flop had no obvious draws, and especially, flop was paired. 3. Turn was a bad card - completed a flush or straight draw, or paired the top card on the board.

Basically I don't have a standard line, I like to wing it according to what seems most optimal for the situation.

This is a great topic. I'm also working on the right situations for 2nd barrells, and experiementing on varying the size of c-bets based on the board texture.

But I don't get why everyone says the 1/2 pot c-bet was too weak and hero should make it 3/4 or a full psb. Does a TAG's calling range really change between 1/2 and full pot c-bets on a drawless board like that one?

Originally Posted by dalecooper

There are much easier pickin's out there than this guy if you suspect he was just messing with you.

I agree. Me and 2 others (him included) were the only ones I had labeled as solid.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

By the way, my general strategy for a caller when I am OOP is this: c-bet the flop most of the time for about 2/3 - 3/4 pot. If they call, check the flop texture and see what they might be drawing to; also analyze how weak and callish they have been previously. If there's a likely draw that hasn't hit on the turn, and/or they have been prone to make a few weak calls followed by folds before, I'll fire again on the turn for at least 3/4 pot. I also like firing the second barrel better when an overcard hits on the turn, because even though it missed me, it may scare them off. Here's the perfect action for me to use a second c-bet:

me (UTG) - raises to 2.00 with AsKs
kind of loose guy (UTG+1) - calls
everyone else folds.

flop - 9d 7d 3c
me - 3.00 bet
him - calls

turn - Qs
me - 8.00 bet
him - folds, I hope.

I'm not really sure what range I can put him on here, since it was SB v BB. He could have really loosened him calling range. I thought the texture was pretty good for a cbet and the turn for a second barrel. My biggest guess is he had 55-99 or air. I think TT+ would have reraised preflop.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Basically I don't have a standard line, I like to wing it according to what seems most optimal for the situation.

Originally Posted by Lukie

As played, on the turn, I'm usually c/f'ing and sometimes firing the 2nd barrell. Once you fire the 2nd barrell and he raises, there's absolutely nothing you can do.

I see what you and Lukie mean... there isn't a "set" way to play this hand. I guess I just saw check/folding as uber weak when actually it may have been just as good, if not better, than the line I took.

The sad fact is some actions in poker are decidedly weak, and yet still the best (most profitable) decision. It could be that this guy was floating on you but if he wasn't, with that kind of board he's probably way ahead of you. Without a very detailed read I'm not generally going to take a chance on another c-bet on the turn here. But I think you would have had better information with a 3/4 pot bet on the flop.

benny - in response to your question, yes, absolutely it does. Discounting aware players for a second, plenty of players will call a 1/2 pot bet on a small pot with any two overcards, gutshot draws, even backdoor flush draws. At low stakes you can't discount anything, even if you peg the player as solid. And speaking of solid players, someone who is thinking is aware that he has position on you and that the board is crummy. He perceives a 1/2 pot bet as a typical c-bet (especially if he's read any Harrington on Hold 'Em, or just heard the term "continuation bet") and may float on you with absolutely nothing, thinking to pick up the pot later. A lot of players very specifically do this with crummy hands like gutshot draws because they figure they have 4 good outs to fall back on, but if they don't make their outs and the board stays raggedy, they can steal from you when you inevitably slow down in your betting. Or they may do it with nothing, because they "put you on overcards" (I've heard that expression a few million times) and decided to "keep you honest" (that one too).

So to sum up, betting 1/2 the pot on a small pot will invite a surprising amount of action from fishes and aware players alike. A minimum 2/3 pot bet (and I usually lean even a bit higher, in the 3/4 range) says you're serious.