Confusing QQ Hand

I was really confused by villain's line in this hand. I doubted very seriously that he held a hand with an 8 in it. The river was either a really dumb bluff, a really weird set line, or a really weird AA/KK line. What do you do on the river? No reads on this guy, but FWIW WPEX is a rock garden.

25NL WPEX

Hero is UTG+1 ($24)
Villain is MP1 ($25)

** Dealing Down Cards **
Dealt to Hero: [:Qh:, :Qd:]
Player 9: Call ($0.25)
Hero: Raise ($1.25)
Player 1: Fold
Villain: Call ($1.25)
Player 5: Fold
Player 6: Fold
Player 7: Fold
Player 8: Fold
Player 9: Call ($1)

** Dealing Flop **

Player 9: Check ($0)
Hero: Bet ($2.50)
Villain: Call ($2.50)
Player 9: Fold

** Dealing Turn **

Hero: Bet ($5)
Villain: Call ($5)

** Dealing River **

Hero: Bet ($7)
Villain: Raise ($16.85)
Hero: ?

I think he has T8, but I still might call this. It looks like he is drawing, then smooth calling turn cause the pot is large enough for him to push river and get a call. Hes been watching too much TV.

For some reason I'm seeing PP88 here. If he had position and an open ended draw, I might expect some kind of raise on the flop or turn, although a lot of players certainly don't do that.

For me this plays exactly like someone calling down w/ middle PP knowing that they shouldn't and then trying to get some value when they get lucky.

By the way, despite that I'm definitely calling here, w/out adding it up I think your getting about 3 to 1 on your money. With absolutely no read thats an instacall on the river for me w/ overpair.

I doubted very seriously that he held a hand with an 8 in it.

If the only hand that beat you was an 8 I'd call but it isn't so I fold. I think JT is pretty likely here and more likely than an 8 unless it's 8T/98.

Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher

I doubted very seriously that he held a hand with an 8 in it.

If the only hand that beat you was an 8 I'd call but it isn't so I fold. I think JT is pretty likely here and more likely than an 8 unless it's 8T/98.

Yes, I did forget about JT. I called btw. I'll give results after a few more ppl give input.

i check river, not much value in betting. i fold to the push too.

villain showed AA

So he was slowplaying/smooth calling.

why would anyone bet/call this river? ridiculous against any semi-sane opponent

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

villain showed AA

add to buddy list, pwn with small pair setting up.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

why would anyone bet/call this river? ridiculous against any semi-sane opponent

i do think the call was wrong. why no bet though? are you calling any bets if you check?

Don't bet hands that only 1 or 2 hands you are beating are calling, yeah you probably have to check/fold that river.

I wanted to add that alot of speculative hands that may peel one on the flop improved to pair + draw on the turn and thus didnt feel like folding. The river completes almost any hand hand that would have called the flop that didn't have you beat anyways so check/folding doesn't seem that bad on the river.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

villain showed AA

I see backwards AA every now and then.

The river is an easy check/call or bet/fold against a passive opponent.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

villain showed AA

I see backwards AA every now and then.

The river is an easy check/call or bet/fold against a passive opponent.

So you don't think a bet on the river is a big No-No here?

I wouldn't have checked the river, I had him on JT, or J8 as well. What about checking the turn instead to see if he is serious about the hand or not. If it is an overpair or a set, At $25NL they get a little ansy about not getting money in on the turn, so a raise here will tell you more. He'll re raise push on the turn as fast as he does on the river because your not moving fast enough. The problem with $25NL is Overpairs are played like monsters to some of these guys.

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

I wouldn't have checked the river, I had him on JT, or J8 as well. What about checking the turn instead to see if he is serious about the hand or not. If it is an overpair or a set, At $25NL they get a little ansy about not getting money in on the turn, so a reeraise here will tell you more. He'll push a reraise on the turn as fast as he does on the river because your not moving fast enough. The problem with $25NL is Overpairs are played like monsters to some of these guys.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. You say to check the turn and you are saying I'm somehow supposed to re-raise him? That doesn't make sense since there's no way for him to raise me in the first place.

Sorry meant raises not reraises. oops. changed it

Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Sorry meant raises not reraises. oops. changed it

ok so you like a c/r then on the turn?

Yes, with the pre flop call, flop call we have no idea of his hand. Is it a draw, overpair or set. With full stacks , if I'm villian, I call both these preflop and flop bets with 8 T, Q T, 9 9, 3 3 or an overpair . But I raise your turn bet to get money in before the river if I have the set. He's unsure until the weak river bet what you have. Possibly putting you on J J or 9 9 or overpair. Looks like he's in Pot control mode incase you have the set and you never pushed him. What do you think he has put you on. What line are you representing.

Sorry if I'm off here. These are the things I'm trying to work on for myself.

checking the turn here is bad. if you check and he bets and you raise you're pricing yourself into calling anyways. You're better off bet/folding or bet/calling the turn instead of c/r'ing unless you are sure he's betting with weaker hands.

But I raise your turn bet to get money in before the river if I have the set.

Stop using this line as a standard, it makes your hand transparant.

Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher

checking the turn here is bad. if you check and he bets and you raise you're pricing yourself into calling anyways.

agreed.

I block bet river and fold to a push or just check call a small bet

Originally Posted by givememyleg

I block bet river and fold to a push or just check call a small bet

I got step 1 right but still called the push