Could this have been avoided??

Party is soooo generous in giving out monsters!!! Two boats for the price of one Showdown.

***** Hand History for Game 3154002028 *****
0/0 Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) - Tue Dec 06 08:55:07 EST 2005
Table Table 66593 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: RKNUTSON ( $24.75)
Seat 2: Alfie_Moon ( $27.45)
Seat 3: edpricepga ( $24.75)
Seat 4: s1Lv1a ( $25.10)
Seat 5: godanboll ( $32.45)
Seat 6: Ticotin ( $24.30)
Seat 7: fumduc ( $23.90)
Seat 8: WellHung33 ( $20.65)
Seat 9: Mata7778 ( $7.30)
Seat 10: jiyishian ( $4.10)
s1Lv1a posts small blind (0.10)
godanboll posts big blind (0.25)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to s1Lv1a [ 4d, 4s ]
Ticotin folds.
fumduc folds.
WellHung33 folds.
Mata7778 folds.
jiyishian folds.
RKNUTSON raises (3) to 3
Alfie_Moon folds.
edpricepga folds.
s1Lv1a calls (2.90)
godanboll folds.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kd, 4c, 3d ]
s1Lv1a checks.
RKNUTSON bets (2)
s1Lv1a raises (4) to 4
RKNUTSON calls (2)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ As ]
s1Lv1a bets (4)
RKNUTSON calls (4)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3s ]
s1Lv1a bets (14.10)
s1Lv1a is all-In.
RKNUTSON calls (13.75)
RKNUTSON is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $47.30 with RKNUTSON
Creating Side Pot 1 with $0.35 with s1Lv1a
** Summary **
Main Pot: $47.30 | Side Pot 1: $0.35 | Rake: $2.45
Board: [ Kd 4c 3d As 3s ]
RKNUTSON balance $47.30, bet $24.75, collected $47.30, net +$22.55 [ Ks Kh ] [ a full house, Kings full of threes -- Ks,Kh,Kd,3d,3s ]
Alfie_Moon balance $27.45, didn't bet (folded)
edpricepga balance $24.75, didn't bet (folded)
s1Lv1a balance $0.35, bet $25.10, collected $0.35, lost -$24.75 [ 4d 4s ] [ a full house, Fours full of threes -- 4d,4s,4c,3d,3s ]
godanboll balance $32.20, lost $0.25 (folded)
Ticotin balance $24.30, didn't bet (folded)
fumduc balance $23.90, didn't bet (folded)
WellHung33 balance $20.65, didn't bet (folded)
Mata7778 balance $7.30, didn't bet (folded)
jiyishian balance $4.10, didn't bet (folded)

No

You could fold preflop since the raise is $3 and he only has $24.75 but that's debatable. $3 is a big preflop raise at that level. If he's a tight player, then easily fold. If he's loose then this call isn't bad. Once you see the flop, you accomplished your goal by getting all your money in with a boat.

You went set hunting and caught. With a rainbow board you either lose your stack or take his.

Originally Posted by r8ed

You could fold preflop since the raise is $3 and he only has $24.75 but that's debatable. $3 is a big preflop raise at that level. If he's a tight player, then easily fold. If he's loose then this call isn't bad. Once you see the flop, you accomplished your goal by getting all your money in with a boat.

I agree with R8ed: I don't call over 10% of my stack with 22-44 I find my set over set ratio to outway the reward. I will happily call smaller PFRs though. . . that is table dependent of course. In this case, I would only call <= $1.50.

Once you caught your set, I am going broke here too.

big preflop raise at25nl tells you imo he has a big pp TT/JJ/QQ most likely
The fact he calls you through two streets tells me he likes his hand, especially when the ace turns up and he still calls.
I agree with others you dont ever get away from this but i wouldnt push the river after he calls through i just bet it quite big. But then if he pushes im calling anyway.
Why only bet? because of the way 25nl players play/raise big pp's preflop

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

big preflop raise at25nl tells you imo he has a big pp TT/JJ/QQ most likely

Agreed. I usually see TT-QQ here. People who raise it this much are scared to play their hand post-flop with overcards. They are OK with taking the blinds/limper's money and not taking a flop. Occasionally you see the AA or KK -- I don't know what they are thinking.

I don't call his pre-flop raise. The implied odds aren't there. Otherwise, no, you're going to get boned on this hand.

Originally Posted by Off5th

RKNUTSON bets (2)
s1Lv1a raises (4) to 4
RKNUTSON calls (2)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ As ]
s1Lv1a bets (4)
RKNUTSON calls (4)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3s ]
s1Lv1a bets (14.10)

The pre-flop call is terrible. Post-flop is pretty typical tight/passive fair.

Everyone likes players who under-bet well defined hands up until the river.

Set hunting is not justified here:

Preflop you get 8.3 - 1 on your money
Hitting a set is 7.5-1
When you hit your set you are a 90% favorate meaning you need 8.5 implied odds preflop for BREAK even, add rake and your play is HUGE -EV

If you add rake to these micro levels where they always take MAX rake the 10% rule does not really apply.
You need minimum 11:1 implied odds if you include rake in the equation and thats almost a break even play


Consider your play you payed $25 to win a $47 pot. which is $22 profit, you payd $3 preflop to make $22 profit, no way in hell this is justified.

Originally Posted by TalentedTom

Set hunting is not justified here:

Preflop you get 8.3 - 1 on your money
Hitting a set is 7.5-1
When you hit your set you are a 90% favorate meaning you need 8.5 implied odds preflop for BREAK even, add rake and your play is HUGE -EV

If you add rake to these micro levels where they always take MAX rake the 10% rule does not really apply.
You need minimum 11:1 implied odds if you include rake in the equation and thats almost a break even play


Consider your play you payed $25 to win a $47 pot. which is $22 profit, you payd $3 preflop to make $22 profit, no way in hell this is justified.

Good post. I only have one thing to add: Don't forget to figure the times you can't get all his money in the middle, winning only $5-10.

Yes its also possible he has QQ or KK and an overcard on the flop kills your action.

Originally Posted by TalentedTom

Set hunting is not justified here:

Preflop you get 8.3 - 1 on your money
Hitting a set is 7.5-1
When you hit your set you are a 90% favorate meaning you need 8.5 implied odds preflop for BREAK even, add rake and your play is HUGE -EV

If you add rake to these micro levels where they always take MAX rake the 10% rule does not really apply.
You need minimum 11:1 implied odds if you include rake in the equation and thats almost a break even play


Consider your play you payed $25 to win a $47 pot. which is $22 profit, you payd $3 preflop to make $22 profit, no way in hell this is justified.

I'll be sure to keep those numbers in mind. The only reason why I called here is because I was set hunting. If I didn't flop it I would've gladly folded to any further raises. Since I did I was sure I was the favorite so I bet hard. Well this is the first time that a bigger boat crushed me so now I know. I'll make all the minor adjustments and think of implied and pot odds next time. It was a way of party poker telling me "You can't always go set hunting when you have pocket pairs, if you do with wrong odds we will put a bigger set out there to beat you!!!!!"

Just out of curiousity, what was going through your mind when you hit the call button?

12xBB call that's almost 1/8th of your stack when your OOP (not a very big deal here) and don't close the action with 44?

I know this has been said, but thats a bad call and even if you get all-in with villain AND win everytime you hit a set, this is still -EV.

Post-flop is played far too passive. I understand the check-raise on the flop, but make it a meaningful bet. I don't understand check/min-raising a 1/3 potsize bet. I'd make it at least 8 total and punch the rest in the next chance you get.

Don't call 12xBB to chase a set.

Originally Posted by TalentedTom

Set hunting is not justified here:

Preflop you get 8.3 - 1 on your money
Hitting a set is 7.5-1
When you hit your set you are a 90% favorate meaning you need 8.5 implied odds preflop for BREAK even, add rake and your play is HUGE -EV

If you add rake to these micro levels where they always take MAX rake the 10% rule does not really apply.
You need minimum 11:1 implied odds if you include rake in the equation and thats almost a break even play


Consider your play you payed $25 to win a $47 pot. which is $22 profit, you payd $3 preflop to make $22 profit, no way in hell this is justified.

I agree I might have been "Set" happy here chasing with just 44. Well since the odds of hitting a set is 7.5-1. What would have been the correct raise to call with my money preflop considering its a $25 n/l table. Should have there been more money from other callers to make this call justifiable?? I need to know more than the odds here. I need to know exactly what raise I should've called with.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I don't call his pre-flop raise. The implied odds aren't there. Otherwise, no, you're going to get boned on this hand.

Can you explain this further???

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=83

Note: the date of the post