Could I Really Fold

Ok heres the deal, I had been playin super loose super aggressive as usual seeing about 24% of flops 6 handed. This is what happened the first hand I was in with this player. The reason im showing everyone this hand is to show why I made the decision to call this same player on the second hand....

PokerStars Game #7541515894: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/12/21 - 14:00:24 (ET)
Table 'Alnilam IV' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Van Dutchman ($33.60 in chips)
Seat 3: RefuseResist ($25.95 in chips)
Seat 4: HERO ($52 in chips)
Seat 5: John Hero ($51.80 in chips)
Seat 6: Bastone1111 ($23.75 in chips)
John Hero: posts small blind $0.25
Bastone1111: posts big blind $0.50
Van Dutchman: posts small & big blinds $0.75
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [As Ah]
Van Dutchman: checks
RefuseResist: calls $0.50
HERO: raises $2.50 to $3
John Hero: folds
Bastone1111: folds
Van Dutchman: calls $2.50
RefuseResist: calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [3h Qd 9c]
Van Dutchman: checks
RefuseResist: checks
HERO: bets $6
Van Dutchman: folds
RefuseResist: raises $16.95 to $22.95 and is all-in
ffdaleon joins the table at seat #2
HERO: calls $16.95
*** TURN *** [3h Qd 9c] [9s]
*** RIVER *** [3h Qd 9c 9s] [Kd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RefuseResist: shows [9d Jc] (three of a kind, Nines)
HERO: mucks hand
RefuseResist collected $53.90 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $55.90 | Rake $2
Board [3h Qd 9c 9s Kd]
Seat 1: Van Dutchman folded on the Flop
Seat 3: RefuseResist showed [9d Jc] and won ($53.90) with three of a kind, Nines
Seat 4: HERO (button) mucked [As Ah]
Seat 5: John Hero (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Bastone1111 (big blind) folded


Now I know some of you are goin to say why did I play this hand let alone raise it, please try to forget about the ho cards I have but focus more on if I should have folded OR not, and why I should of folded OR why I should have made the call I did. My thinking here is he probably doesnt have AA KK QQ JJ, nor AKc since he didnt raise pre flop, which im not worried about anyway, just tryin to put him on a hand. Though he might have AT 22 33 44 55 66 77 88 99 or TT. So I beat 7 hands yet lose to 3. However even 2 of the 3 that I lose to is doubtful that he has (22,33) since I myself have 2 of them outs. And also I took into account that less 10 hands ago this same player made a tricky aggressive move re-raising me with the 9j midpair weak kicker and sucked out on me as you all have seen in hand number one.

PokerStars Game #7541687261: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/12/21 - 14:14:48 (ET)
Table 'Alnilam IV' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Van Dutchman ($36.05 in chips)
Seat 2: ffdaleon ($19.90 in chips)
Seat 3: RefuseResist ($53.55 in chips)
Seat 4: HERO ($50.45 in chips)
Seat 5: John Hero ($57.85 in chips)
Seat 6: maymun77 ($32.70 in chips)
Van Dutchman: posts small blind $0.25
ffdaleon: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [4h 3d]
RefuseResist: calls $0.50
HERO: raises $2.50 to $3
John Hero: calls $3
maymun77: folds
Van Dutchman: folds
ffdaleon: folds
RefuseResist: calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [Th 4c 3c]
RefuseResist: checks
HERO: bets $9
John Hero: folds
RefuseResist: raises $41.55 to $50.55 and is all-in
HERO: calls $38.45 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Th 4c 3c] [Jh]
*** RIVER *** [Th 4c 3c Jh] [7d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RefuseResist: shows [3s 3h] (three of a kind, Threes)
HERO: mucks hand
RefuseResist collected $101.65 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $104.65 | Rake $3
Board [Th 4c 3c Jh 7d]
Seat 1: Van Dutchman (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: ffdaleon (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: RefuseResist showed [3s 3h] and won ($101.65) with three of a kind, Threes
Seat 4: HERO mucked [4h 3d]
Seat 5: John Hero folded on the Flop
Seat 6: maymun77 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
All thoughs opinions and suggestions are appreciated

Oh and I forgot to add that in the second hand when I was putting him on a hand that he also could have had a club draw or str8 draw but, im not worried about those hands either since I beat them, just thought id add that before I got any replys wondering why I didnt mention them...

<----Use the hand converter please. LH menu under Poker Tools. Shift click to open in separate window.

Can you explain more in specific what you are talking about...I have no clue what this hand converter is or does or where the poker tools menu is or anything. Sorry

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($33.60)
MP ($25.95)
Hero ($52)
SB ($51.80)
BB ($23.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A. UTG posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG (poster) checks, MP calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3, 2 folds, UTG calls $2.50, MP calls $2.50.

Flop: ($9.75) 3, Q, 9 (3 players)
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets $6, UTG folds, MP raises to $22.95, Hero calls $16.95.

Turn: ($55.65) 9 (2 players)

River: ($55.65) K (2 players)

Final Pot: $55.65

Results in white below:
MP has 9d Jc (three of a kind, nines).
SB doesn't show.
Outcome: MP wins $55.65.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($36.05)
BB ($19.90)
UTG ($53.55)
Hero ($50.45)
CO ($57.85)
Button ($32.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 4, 3.
UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3, Hero calls $3, 3 folds, UTG calls $2.50.

Flop: ($9.75) T, 4, 3 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $9, Hero folds, UTG raises to $50.55, Hero calls $38.45 (All-In).

Turn: ($107.75) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($107.75) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $107.75

Results in white below:
UTG has 3s 3h (three of a kind, threes).
CO has (three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: UTG wins $107.75.

Meh, hand 2 is screwed up, but you get the idea.

Hand 1 is a bad beat but a stupid shove by villain.
Hand 2 just fold preflop. Given your read, I can understand the call, but I try to avoid stacking off with bottom 2.

Well I appreciate you taking the time to do that for me and put your two cents in on both the hands. More in depth analsis would be great as well.

Originally Posted by Warpe

I try to avoid stacking off with bottom 2 in unraised pots and/or if my opponent figures to beat 2 pair, in this hand I stack off every time once we decide to play these rags for a raise pre-flop.

Fixed your post. Come'on I know you got more gamble in you than to spout that weak/tight crap.

always pat yourself on the back after hands like #1, this is exactly what you want. most all ins you enter won't have villian drawing dead, so as long as he has outs it can always happen.

stacking with 2p on flop you really need a lot of experience, good to keep in mind it's an available play, but unless you are super experienced I would avoid it, as here the only hands you beat that might pull that line are JJ+. up to you. FNord is highly skilled, but that hand screamed 'set' the second I saw it. Also depends a lot on your table image.

more importantly, stop raising with trash like 34 offsuit and fold. what are you thinking?

My image at the time of those hands was being a total maniac.

just remember there is a difference between LAGG and playing EV- hands

But my aggression on pre flop raised (built pots) post flop, along with the action I get on the made hands that i catch and stack players off on makes up easily for the -ev that i incur. Thoughts?

i dont mind mixing this in occaisionally in position against someone who will stack off with weak made hand, but this is just spewy IMO. bottom 2 isnt the greatest of hands to put your whole stack in for.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Warpe

I try to avoid stacking off with bottom 2 in unraised pots and/or if my opponent figures to beat 2 pair, in this hand I stack off every time once we decide to play these rags for a raise pre-flop.

Fixed your post. Come'on I know you got more gamble in you than to spout that weak/tight crap.

I was too appalled at the hand we were playing for a raise here to bother much with the rest of it...

My image at the time of those hands was being a total maniac.

1. Insta-call. Standard payoff of top pair against LAG's overpair.
2. Insta-call. Just like Fnord said - if you decide to play junk for a big raise, bottom two is played for 100BB.

Actually, in both hands it's stupid easy call even when you have normal TAG image.

I had been playin super loose super aggressive as usual seeing about 24% of flops 6 handed.

Thats not super loose. Thats not even loose. 24% is a pretty reasonably 6 max TAGish number. loose in 6max is 30% or something. super loose is 40%+.

I dont know how aggressive youve been but you probably dont have a loose image even if they are paying attention.

Hand1 is a bad beat. Hand 2 I probably get stacked here.




Board: Th 4c 3c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 53.0808 % 53.07% 00.01% { 4d3h }
Hand 2: 46.9192 % 46.91% 00.01% { QQ-TT, 44-33, AcKc, AcQc }

It looks more like a draw to me than a set. Add in more overpairs and were a massive favorite.
Make a note that the guy likes to play super fast.

implied odds ftw