crazy ass play or smart?

Is this guy completely crazy ass or smart? Would you have called? I considered going AI.

PokerStars Game #1888632580: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/06/12 -
23:55:52 (ET)
Table 'Kalm' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: dutrack ($147.25 in chips)
Seat 2: DimitriT ($128.25 in chips)
Seat 3: crzytrader ($138.05 in chips)
Seat 4: bouki ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 5: Tarnmad ($140.80 in chips)
Seat 6: columbus2382 ($109.75 in chips)
Seat 7: bonkers54 ($93.65 in chips)
Seat 8: couchu ($82.20 in chips)
Seat 9: westie44 ($132.85 in chips)
couchu: posts small blind $0.50
westie44: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DimitriT [Jc Jh]
dutrack: calls $1
DimitriT: raises $9 to $10
crzytrader: folds
bouki: folds
Tarnmad: folds
columbus2382: calls $10
bonkers54: folds
couchu: folds
westie44: folds
dutrack: raises $40 to $50
DimitriT said, "dam"
DimitriT: folds
columbus2382: folds
dutrack collected $31.50 from pot
dutrack: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $31.50 | Rake $0
Seat 1: dutrack collected ($31.50)
Seat 2: DimitriT folded before Flop
Seat 3: crzytrader folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bouki folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Tarnmad folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: columbus2382 folded before Flop
Seat 7: bonkers54 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: couchu (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: westie44 (big blind) folded before Flop

he was UTG and probably limped w/ aces or kings, def. fold

Yea, but why such a big bet. He's risking 1/3 of his stack to push
out two plrs. If he has AA he should probably raised it another $10
(which would have achieved at least one fold) and gotten heads up
for more. Maybe he thought we were crazies and would call. It happens
that way sometimes.

If he has KK or QQ, he needs to worry about AA so he should probably
fold or call if he wants to play it for the set.

Only other explanation is a bluff. In which case he had a great read on
both of us.

It's a tricky play, he could theoretically do this with nothing but a mid pair.

-'rilla

you raised 9x the bb, thats quite a raise, typically someone that would do that would call pretty much any reraise in my mind.

Originally Posted by bair

you raised 9x the bb, thats quite a raise, typically someone that would do that would call pretty much any reraise in my mind.

Not sure about that. But I think he was new to the table so he may have had no reads. That may have forced him to play KK like this.
I like to think I folded to KK in this hand but its very possible he had
nothing.

I'm guessing he limped from UTG with KK, and saw a $20 pot in front of
him. My bet was probably not too worrisome since I obviously had a high pair (but probably not AA). But the call may have alerted him to either AK or AQ which can be a problem for KK.

In that situation I can see myself coming in over the top like that.

if i have aces or kings and someone raises 9x the BB im going all in

Originally Posted by bair

if i have aces or kings and someone raises 9x the BB im going all in

I guess I should've done what you suggested here then:

PokerStars Game #1888412923: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) -
2005/06/12 -
23:26:52 (ET)
Table 'Kalm' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: dutrack ($100.05 in chips)
Seat 2: DimitriT ($53.25 in chips)
Seat 3: crzytrader ($221.75 in chips)
Seat 4: bouki ($63.10 in chips)
Seat 5: Tarnmad ($192.35 in chips)
Seat 6: columbus2382 ($84.95 in chips)
Seat 7: bonkers54 ($102.20 in chips)
Seat 9: westie44 ($99 in chips)
dutrack: posts small blind $0.50
DimitriT: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DimitriT [Ah Ac]
crzytrader: folds
bouki: folds
Tarnmad: folds
columbus2382: folds
bonkers54: raises $3 to $4
westie44: folds
dutrack: folds
DimitriT: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [2d Qh Td]
couchu joins the table at seat #8
DimitriT: bets $2
bonkers54: raises $8 to $10
DimitriT: raises $10 to $20
bonkers54: raises $78.20 to $98.20 and is all-in
DimitriT: calls $29.25 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [2d Qh Td] [Jc]
*** RIVER *** [2d Qh Td Jc] [Ts]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DimitriT: shows [Ah Ac] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
bonkers54: mucks hand
DimitriT collected $104 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $107 | Rake $3
Board [2d Qh Td Jc Ts]
Seat 1: dutrack (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: DimitriT (big blind) showed [Ah Ac] and won ($104) with two
pair,
Aces and Tens
Seat 3: crzytrader folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bouki folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Tarnmad folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: columbus2382 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: bonkers54 mucked [Qs Ad]
Seat 9: westie44 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

i fail to see the connection between those 2 hands, he raised 3x the bb not 9x, there is a huge difference.

Originally Posted by bair

i fail to see the connection between those 2 hands, he raised 3x the bb not 9x, there is a huge difference.

I'm looking at the flop bet. Had I gone AI on that bet are you so sure
he would have called me? I would rather make an incremental
raise to get him more pot committed. Most TA players would fold
to an AI move.

I'm not sure the 10x bet was the best play but how else would you
play JJ? It's a very vulnerable hand. I think in this case I got the
information I needed. Had he played his KK a little slower I may
have lost an additional $10 to $20.

Originally Posted by DimitriT

Originally Posted by bair

i fail to see the connection between those 2 hands, he raised 3x the bb not 9x, there is a huge difference.

I'm looking at the flop bet. Had I gone AI on that bet are you so sure
he would have called me? I would rather make an incremental
raise to get him more pot committed. Most TA players would fold
to an AI move.

I'm not sure the 10x bet was the best play but how else would you
play JJ? It's a very vulnerable hand. I think in this case I got the
information I needed. Had he played his KK a little slower I may
have lost an additional $10 to $20.

well i was only talking about preflop play, a 9xbb raise preflop with JJ is pretty dumb in my opinion, the only person that will be calling you is someone that has you beat. the only callers you could possibly ever get is QQ, AKs, KK, AA, maybe not even the first 2. you basically set yourself up for a humongous reraise when you could have thrown out a smaller raise and either of gotten to see a flop or get to fold preflop while putting in less money at the same time. if he raises its cheaper, if he calls its cheaper, its cheaper no matter what. I dont think you would have lost more money if he played it slower because you are playing JJ for a set and shouldnt really be calling many AI's.

concerning your flop bet (im assuming you are talking about the last one you posted), a $2 bet is kinda bad because you are pretty vulnerable to a flush and a straight draw, i'd bet the pot here or a little less. also i wouldnt suggest reraising the minimum when he raises you, if he was raising you with a draw, which people often do, thats an easy call for him.

Originally Posted by bair

the only callers you could possibly ever get is QQ, AKs, KK, AA, maybe not even the first 2.

Yes, that's what I expect. I don't want the flop with JJ. I want the PF bets.
I am willing to give up the bet to the better hands. JJ can work only in
limited situations. I'm still not seeing why the 10x bet was a mistake.

Originally Posted by bair

concerning your flop bet (im assuming you are talking about the last one you posted), a $2 bet is kinda bad because you are pretty vulnerable to a flush and a straight draw

So do you think he would have raised $3 PF with a drawing hand?

A QK? I almost swallowed my dentures when the J came up (he could have had AK!!). But I was willing to bet against his inside straight.

The flush draw is a remote possibility which I could have delt with on the turn. I gambled for a larger pot. If he would have called the $2 I would have put him on a draw and bet into him on the turn. The $2 bet is a weak lead and served its purpose by elliciting the raise.

Originally Posted by DimitriT

I'm not sure the 10x bet was the best play but how else would you
play JJ? It's a very vulnerable hand. I think in this case I got the
information I needed. Had he played his KK a little slower I may
have lost an additional $10 to $20.

i still give JJ the same exact raise i would give AA or KK or AK/AQ 4x the BB

if your raising higher with JJ your only going to be called by QQ KK AA and/or someone comes over the top of you.

if you change up your raises inline with strength of your hand, someone is going to make this play at you everytime you raise that amount because he knows you have a middle pair.


and the second hand i woulda kicked up the preflop raise quite a bit.

Originally Posted by DimitriT

Yes, that's what I expect. I don't want the flop with JJ. I want the PF bets.
I am willing to give up the bet to the better hands. JJ can work only in
limited situations. I'm still not seeing why the 10x bet was a mistake.

i dont think the pot was big enough to warrant trying to take it down right away... your bet looked suspicious, and i think your opponent caught on to it.

ive been getting weary about people who out of nowhere raise really high out of position, my guess is they dont want action ... so what could they hold??? TT JJ 99 ???


if there was a raise and a few callers then i would attempt to reraise it like that to try to take it down, but i dont think there was enough money in the pot to do so in this particular case.

The huge preflop raise with J-J is a bit silly.

That's a super easy fold after the guy reraises, anyways.

So what would you have done? 6x? 5x?

$6 to go

I always raise 3 times the big blind unless there are 2 or more players who have limped in behind me, then I usually adjust my raise to be roughly the size of the pot.