Finally it all makes sense. THANK YOU FTR

Based on FTR suggestion, here are some HHs. I'm no longer "playing scared", and my bet size is 1/2 to 2/3 of pot size. I stopped chasing draws, and made a REAL commitment to considering pot odds.



Now I actually continuation bet after pre-flop raises -- and shockingly it works! I'm also following my read much more in depth before betting now, I always put villian on a hand (strangely, I didn't do this very in depth before!). I'm especially paying attention to villians bet size, and what kind of hand makes tha

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is SB with A J
3 folds, HERO raises to $1, BB calls $0.5 (pot was $1.5).

Flop: 4 T 6 ($2, 2 players)
HERO bets $1, BB calls $1 (pot was $3).

Turn: 2 ($4, 2 players)
HERO checks, BB bets $3, HERO raises to $8, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: $5 returned to HERO.

Results:
Final pot: $10



Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is CO with A Q
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.5 (pot was $0.75), HERO raises to $2, Button folds, SB calls $1.75 (pot was $3.25), BB folds, UTG+1 calls $1.5 (pot was $5).

Flop: 9 Q 5 ($6.5, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, HERO bets $2, SB calls $2 (pot was $8.5), UTG+1 folds.

Turn: T ($10.5, 2 players)
SB checks, HERO checks.

River: 5 ($10.5, 2 players)
SB bets $6, HERO calls $6 (pot was $16.5).

Results:
Final pot: $22.5

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) HERO is BB with Q A
UTG calls $0.5 (pot was $0.75), Button folds, SB calls $0.25 (pot was $1.25), HERO raises to $2, UTG calls $1.5 (pot was $3), SB folds.

Flop: 4 8 A ($4.5, 2 players)
HERO bets $3, UTG raises to $6, HERO calls $3 (pot was $13.5).

Turn: 4 ($16.5, 2 players)
HERO checks, UTG bets $2, HERO calls $2 (pot was $18.5).

River: 7 ($20.5, 2 players)
HERO checks, UTG checks.

Results:
Final pot: $20.5


Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is Button with 9 K
UTG calls $0.5 (pot was $0.75), UTG+1 folds, CO raises to $1, HERO calls $1 (pot was $2.25), SB calls $0.75 (pot was $3.25), BB calls $0.5 (pot was $4), UTG calls $0.5 (pot was $4.5).

Flop: J 8 T ($5, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets $1.5, HERO calls $1.5 (pot was $6.5), 3 folds.

Turn: 4 ($8, 2 players)
CO checks, HERO bets $3, CO raises all-in $9.75, HERO calls $6.75 (pot was $20.75).

River: 7 ($27.5, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $27.5)


Results:
Final pot: $27.5

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is SB with 6 3
3 folds, HERO calls $0.25 (pot was $0.75), BB checks.

Flop: T 5 4 ($1, 2 players)
HERO bets $0.5, BB raises to $1, HERO calls $0.5 (pot was $2.5).

Turn: 2 ($3, 2 players)
HERO checks, BB bets $2.5, HERO raises to $5, BB calls $2.5 (pot was $10.5).

River: A ($13, 2 players)
HERO bets $8, BB calls $8 (pot was $21).

Results:
Final pot: $29





Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is UTG+1 with 8 A
UTG folds, HERO raises to $1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.75 (pot was $1.75), BB folds.

Flop: 2 J 4 ($2.5, 2 players)
SB checks, HERO bets $2, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: $2 returned to HERO.

Results:
Final pot: $2.5

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is UTG with 7 A
HERO raises to $1, CO folds, Button calls $1 (pot was $1.75), SB folds, BB calls $0.5 (pot was $2.75).

Flop: 5 3 A ($3.25, 3 players)
BB bets $1, HERO raises to $2, Button folds, BB calls $1 (pot was $6.25).

Turn: 5 ($7.25, 2 players)
BB checks, HERO bets $3, BB calls $3 (pot was $10.25).

River: 8 ($13.25, 2 players)
BB checks, HERO bets $7, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: $7 returned to HERO.

Results:
Final pot: $13.25

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is Button with K Q
2 folds, HERO raises to $1, SB folds, BB calls $0.5 (pot was $1.75).

Flop: 9 9 T ($2.25, 2 players)
BB checks, HERO bets $1.25, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: $1.25 returned to HERO.

Results:
Final pot: $2.25


During current Hold'em session you were dealt 387 hands and saw flop:
- 42 out of 71 times while in big blind (59%)
- 38 out of 74 times while in small blind (51%)
- 75 out of 242 times in other positions (30%)
- a total of 155 out of 387 (40%)
Pots won at showdown - 18 of 34 (52%)
Pots won without showdown - 67


The whole time, I think I saw kings three times and no aces... this was the best cash game night I've played. I've made more money before by landing a couple lucky nut hands against donks, but this was a grind it out night. this was a new style for me, based off the advice I've gotten here from HH advice. I really, for the first time, felt comfortable and confident. Instead of fishing, I extracted from fish. Instead of calling when I felt someone drew out despite calling in bad pot odds, I folded.

The biggest revelation was pots won before showdown. I've never had such a high ratio. I remembe reading some Daniel Negraneau articles online about how in his Montreal game all he had to do in many hands was raise and people would fold. Plus, I've finally realized how much fishing is going on -- the guy who just calls 1/2 and 2/3 pot sized bets is probably drawing, while when you are re-raised it's time to quit, especially how loose I was playing.

In a nutshell -- THANKS! I won many of the posted hands, but not all. If any advice, let me know. But finally having the balls to bet flops you missed has changed it all. Plus reading all the hand analysis has really made me think about the opponents hand more than my own (finally!)

Some of these hands are small, mundane pots. But to go eastern on you for a moment, I feel like these are the "void" with the big pots being the "form" we usually "see" when we play. But these hands are equally as important as the 'monsters', as they not only set up your monsters, but provide extra income between the bigger hands. I always thought I needed to get tangled with someone in a big all in to double up. Now I see I can double, even triple up or more through steady, consistent play.

I'm also experiencing some positive effects from tourney play -- Based on tourney I'm realizing what hands people are likely to raise with (I know it's different in tournies vs. cash, but there's some cross over) and I know how UNLIKELY it is for an opponent to hit the flop at all!

Most of it is pretty meaningless without knowing stack sizes.

Hand 2: you arent cbetting anywhere near half pot. Easy and profitable call with 2 diamonds and probably even middle pair type hands.

Hand all the others: you seem to be betting and raising with nothing far too often.

Hand last: I like betting out here too. Minraises usually mean extreme strength or extreme weakness. Once you hit the turn you arent getting much from extreme weakness so raise bigger and stack a set. I make it $7 or something. The river kills alot of your action. If stacks are big I push and hope he has a 3. If stacks are reasonably small I play it how you did.

Most of the hands I posted the villian stakcs are about $30-50, with me at anywhere from $80-$150 at 50nl tables

Normally I'd agree that I was betting with nothing too much, but I felt like I was reading the tables I was at very well. Maybe its just variance, btu tonight I felt like I knew when people had nothing and I should bet. There were plenty of hands I quit on, and it seemed like rarely were people playing back at my continuation bets. When they did, it always seemed like it was at the wrong time and I had the better hand.

I'd say the biggest difference was that my decisions always seemed easy, while it seemed like I was making everyone else sweat it out.

is there anyway to get Pokerstars to include stack size in HHs?

Just be careful now. It's very easy to get too confident after one session, when everything worked your way.

Glad it all makes sense. Now get ready for the day when you question everything you thought you'd learned.

haha, I was up all night playing poker -- "all" was definitely a bad choice of words! What I really meant is that I'm figuring out how to win some at cash, instead of lose as I am mostly a tourny player.

I'm ready to lose to some 2 outers on the river

Bought Gordon's green book, Harrington, and Sklansky Theory of Poker. Ready for time off this Christmas to read them. Advice here is great because you are told straight up what you need to hear. E.g. "Stfu newb, you went on one rush for the night"

Any advice on the hands, or my stats? I always thought 40% flop would was considered leaking chips, but it seemed to work this time around.

Originally Posted by mixchange

Any advice on the hands, or my stats? I always thought 40% flop would was considered leaking chips, but it seemed to work this time around.

It generally is, but if you're running hot and can do no wrong who cares?

And so it continues, I nearly tripled up again tonight . I think 30-35% is about the right spot for my style and limit depending on the play. I don't think I can keep up 40% at most tables.

I really have noticed though that to play this LAGG style I really have to be on the ball - I can't be watching tv in the background, I can't be tired. I tried playing a couple times this week tired or not completely focused, and it had bad results, though I only played maybe 10 minutes each because I realized I was playing badly and minimized my losses. So far the biggest help to my bankroll has been knowing when I am playing badly and to just quit. If I really want to play just to play I can play super micro stakes . I feel like in good sound mind, I should win most nights.

I think I'm failing to extract value on my KK and AA hands though, I've gone from playing them too soft to perhaps taking them down too much on flops and pre-flop.

Originally Posted by mixchange

I think I'm failing to extract value on my KK and AA hands though, I've gone from playing them too soft to perhaps taking them down too much on flops and pre-flop.

AA/KK aren't necessarily your money-makers. They will be solid winners for you PF but degrade as you get towards showdown if they don't improve (like any PP). If the betting gets heavy on the flop, depending on the player, you could be behind with your AA/KK.

there seems to be a lot of minraises pf. these are generally a bad idea. especially when you are raising from UTG with a weak A type of hand. It is hard enough to play Ax HU, why make it so that you are going to play a family pot with it.

with the K9s hand, why not check the turn behind. your opp is obviously very short stacked and they are more likely to get all of their chips in the middle at any point. take your free card and get all of his chips when you hit. failing that, at least make it a bet with some meat on it.

I think you can take a much larger pot down with your 6-high straight if you do more than min raise the turn. he seems to like his hand, and will most likely call a raise to $7 just as easily. this sets up a bigger river bet.

Originally Posted by mixchange

I'm no longer "playing scared", and my bet size is 1/2 to 2/3 of pot size.

It still looks to me like you're playing scared and not betting strong enough.

martin - your input has been very valuable. You are right at times I am still playing a bit scared and I bet too little post-flop on my first AQ hand, but its not nearly as bad as before. The second AQ hand I didn't realize that the re-raiser on the flop didn't believe I had the ace, and I could get more value (he had A 10) . I had won quite a few pots at showdown with suited connectors with similar preflop bets, and he was trying to prevent me from drawing out! I feared he had a set, so yes I was a bit scared I think I should have raised on the turn, but I like my river check to let him act in case he was drawing to a flush

I now take lots of pots down on flops I completely miss with 2/3-3/4 pot sized bets, but these are boring to post. I will listen to your advice as it's worked! I guess the problem is that at times I want to avoid my old problem of betting too much and only getting called by hands that beat me, while not getting value from the hands that I beat. I suppose pot odds studing in the Harrington, Sklansky, and Gordon books arriving this week will help me on that. btw, I love your icon.

geoff -- I guess I don't know how much I should be making. Is there a thread where respectd player(s) have posted their Poker Tracker results so I can see in comparison how much a good player makes off AA on average vs. other hands (e.g. flush)? Most of my KK and AA hands lately are taken down on the flop after a $2 raise pf (in .25/.50) and a pot sized or 3/4 pot sized bet on the flop.

Is there another hierarchy of hands that is based on conglomeration of cash players results in dollar values, instead of theoretical odds? Sort of implied odds hand hierarchy... e.g. I remember a post in an online poker blog where one guy said Queen 10 suited was his top money making hand.

pgil -- this is a small hand sample, I generally am not minraising preflop, I usually raise, if in .25/.50, to $1.50. I agree pf minraise is silly because it builds the pot without pushing out hands I don't want. I guess the thought at the time was that I was usually raising 1.50 or 2.00, and I just wanted to mix things up. I guess in mixing things up, it should be $1.25-$2.25 not a minraise. Or is 1.25 too little still?

I agree I blew the K9c hand, that was actually the only hand I lost that I posted. Sometimes I confuse 'not playing scared' with situations where I am drawing and could use the free card. I called the all-in grudginly figuring I was behind, but that I was pot committed and had enough outs.

Extracting value continues to be one of my weaker points. I don't want to lose anyone, but sometimes I realize later looking at my opponents hand that they were trying not to lose me! e.g. on the straight, my opponent flopped 2 pair, 10s and 4s. You are correct $7 would set up more value on the river.

Great input all, on the money and I appreciate the time.

Originally Posted by mixchange

martin - your input has been very valuable. You are right at times I am still playing a bit scared and I bet too little post-flop on my first AQ hand, but its not nearly as bad as before. The second AQ hand I didn't realize that the re-raiser on the flop didn't believe I had the ace, and I could get more value (he had A 10) . I had won quite a few pots at showdown with suited connectors with similar preflop bets, and he was trying to prevent me from drawing out! I feared he had a set, so yes I was a bit scared I think I should have raised on the turn, but I like my river check to let him act in case he was drawing to a flush

I now take lots of pots down on flops I completely miss with 2/3-3/4 pot sized bets, but these are boring to post. I will listen to your advice as it's worked! I guess the problem is that at times I want to avoid my old problem of betting too much and only getting called by hands that beat me, while not getting value from the hands that I beat. I suppose pot odds studing in the Harrington, Sklansky, and Gordon books arriving this week will help me on that. btw, I love your icon.

good to know that these few are the exceptions. i'm glad you are more aggressive now as it will pay off in the longrun. also, i'm sure you know this, but i just feel like i have to say it...don't get discouraged if things don't go so smoothly for you every time. there will be sessions where someone has a hand almost every time you cbet, and it will annoy the crap out of you. it's very easy to try something new for one session, go on an upswing, and then feel like you "get it." just keep things in perspective. good to hear you're having success though. keep it up

I think you need to generally bet harder. I personally think 2/3 pot-pot is the right amount, e.g. hand 2 where you bet $2 into a $6.5 pot with TPTK on a wet board. You're giving the OESD and the flush draw great odds there.

ok, I bet hard on this one...I think I played the whole thing right, just got unlucky - what do you think? Bet full pot on turn instead? Push at all considered

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $85.40
CO: $56.35
Button: $27.70
SB: $7.95
HERO: $51

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is BB with 5 7
UTG folds, CO calls $0.5 (pot was $0.75), Button calls $0.5 (pot was $1.25), SB calls $0.25 (pot was $1.75), HERO checks.

Flop: 5 8 7 ($2, 4 players)
SB bets $0.5, HERO raises to $3, CO calls $3 (pot was $5.5), Button calls $3 (pot was $8.5), SB folds.

Turn: J ($11.5, 3 players)
HERO bets $7, CO calls $7 (pot was $18.5), Button calls $7 (pot was $25.5).

River: 9 ($32.5, 3 players)
HERO checks, CO bets $11, Button calls $11 (pot was $43.5), HERO folds.

Results:
Final pot: $54.5

Originally Posted by mixchange

ok, I bet hard on this one...I think I played the whole thing right, just got unlucky - what do you think? Bet full pot on turn instead? Push at all considered

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $85.40
CO: $56.35
Button: $27.70
SB: $7.95
HERO: $51

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is BB with 5 7
UTG folds, CO calls $0.5 (pot was $0.75), Button calls $0.5 (pot was $1.25), SB calls $0.25 (pot was $1.75), HERO checks.

Flop: 5 8 7 ($2, 4 players)
SB bets $0.5, HERO raises to $3, CO calls $3 (pot was $5.5), Button calls $3 (pot was $8.5), SB folds.

Turn: J ($11.5, 3 players)
HERO bets $7, CO calls $7 (pot was $18.5), Button calls $7 (pot was $25.5).

River: 9 ($32.5, 3 players)
HERO checks, CO bets $11, Button calls $11 (pot was $43.5), HERO folds.

Results:
Final pot: $54.5

raise more on the flop, like to $6 maybe. don't push.

The only point I thought someone with more balls than me might consider a push was on the turn...interesting, $6 is 'overbetting' and I guess this is the right play because 1) 2p is likely not to improve and we REALLY want people out here and 2) one of the straight drawers may be enticed to call with terrible odds. make him pay just as bad on the next street, right? I have a lot of trouble with two pair.

I experienced what you were talking about on the cbets getting called, and I'm glad I read your post. 5 hands in a row where my 3x raise was called, then my cbet was called, 4 of the times I had nothing and the one time I did have TPTK I fired till the river and got called down by 2p that hit on the turn. Down $50 (a full buy in) I read your post and kept firing, and an hour later I earned the $50 back and now I'm up another $50. Thank you.

Originally Posted by mixchange

The only point I thought someone with more balls than me might consider a push was on the turn...interesting, $6 is 'overbetting' and I guess this is the right play because 1) 2p is likely not to improve and we REALLY want people out here and 2) one of the straight drawers may be enticed to call with terrible odds. make him pay just as bad on the next street, right? I have a lot of trouble with two pair.

i don't consider it an overbet really. maybe i'm wrong in doing so, but when someone makes that kind of weak bet, and i want to raise then i just act as if they made a real bet and act accordingly. in your case a real bet would be like 1.50 or 2 so a raise to like 5 or 6 would be fine i think.