folded AK again

man this hand is starting to get to me.
i realize there's no perfect hand. we check around (i've learned not to just always raise the flop with AK... so we have a raise 6xBB and one call. and I call to see the flop)

flop yields nothing for me, and with the big bet i'm out.

----

Started at 04/Jan/05 03:02:23

billorielly is at seat 0 with $7.25.
Incerte is at seat 1 with $5.13.
Icarus456 is at seat 2 with $4.60.
Rainmaker50 is at seat 3 with $10.05.
DrRussia is at seat 4 with $2.40.
OldRoyal is at seat 5 with $1.95.
mvining is at seat 6 with $7.72.
suzie79 is at seat 8 with $8.25.
The button is at seat 0.

Incerte posts the small blind of $.05.
Icarus456 posts the big blind of $.10.

billorielly: -- --
Incerte: -- --
Icarus456: -- --
Rainmaker50: -- --
DrRussia: -- --
OldRoyal: -- --
mvining: -- --
suzie79: Kd Ac

Pre-flop:

Rainmaker50 calls. DrRussia calls. OldRoyal calls.
mvining calls. suzie79 calls. billorielly folds.
Incerte calls. Icarus456 raises to $.60.
Rainmaker50 calls. DrRussia folds. OldRoyal folds.
mvining calls. suzie79 calls. Incerte folds.

Flop (board: 3h Qs 3d):

Icarus456 bets $.65. Rainmaker50 folds. mvining
folds. suzie79 folds, showing Kd Ac. Icarus456 is
returned $.65 (uncalled).



Hand #3858853-1080 Summary:

$.10 is raked from a pot of $2.70.
Icarus456 wins $2.60.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Cloutier talks about AK in Championship No Limit and Pot Limit Hold 'em. The gist of what he says is that if you don't hit the flop then all you've got is ace high so don't get married to it. I agree, but...

In NL I'll often take a bluff at the pot (barely even a semi-bluff, I guess) when I don't hit the flop with this hand for a couple of reasons:

- I probably raised preflop and it's expected for me to bet (this takes down a lot of pots by iteself, especially if there are high cards on the flop or if the board is paired).
- If someone does call me, I have a chance at spiking an ace or a king and maybe winning the hand. It's a weak 6 out draw (even if you catch one of your outs you still might lose), but sometimes if you bet out at the pot on the flop and get a call you can check the turn and see the river for free. And if you spike an ace or a king you can make another stab at the pot with some chance of winning even if you get called. The ace or king hitting the board is often times a scare card, so take advantage of it by representing a monster with your modest hand.

That's my take, but I'm learning all the time and it may be subject to change.

BTW, that pot looks to be something like $2.25 before your call (if I read that correctly). With 22x the big blind in the pot I'd be tempted to reraise, maybe even all-in with AK. The other two people in the pot are a little scary, so you'd like to either take down the pot right there or face 1 opponent on the flop.

Of course, this can lead to some unhappy moments when you're wrong.

Also, his $0.65 bet on the flop seems a little odd because it's so small in relation to the pot. After your call the pot is 2.75, so .65 is a little less than 1/4 of the pot. That looks to me like a feeler or continuation bet. Another dying for a raise kind of situation for me (and those 3's on the board give him a legitimate reason to be concerned about you having a set, even if he does have AA or KK -- of course, if he's got QQ you're dead, but that happens sometimes). Yes, it's unlikely that you'd call a raise with a 3, but maybe you're a Axs type of player. Or maybe you even play Qxs and already have a made full house! A big raise here would certainly give your opponent something to think about.

His bet on the flop was a weak attempt to get everyone to fold out. He bet .6 preflop and .65 on the flop. That's weakness. Reraise here to 2 flat and take down the pot.

-'rilla

wow i guess my thinking on all this is just really off.

point is he likely raised preflop because there were so many limpers in hopes of throwing most out but keeping a couple in (4 total)

so then he bets out a weak bet of roughly 1/4 pot. At this stage what could I really assume he has from preflop and this bet now? Could he have a low pair or perhaps a hand like AT, AJ, KJ, KT, TT ?

is my best bet to re-raise the 65c to 1.30 and see the response - what if he re-raises again? Indicates possibly a 3 or something like KQ or AQ ?

What am I really doing by raising to $2 - I have Ace high so that's basically a semi-bluff drawing on 6 outs ?

Switch positions. You have AKs and bet .65 into that flop and get raised to 2 bucks flat, what are you thinking?

Now say you have AQs.

Now say you have JJ.

-'rilla

I noticed you just called with AK and said you have learned not to always raise with AK. You should ALWAYS raise with AK. You do not always Re-raise with AK. By raising it puts you in a much more powerful position post flop. A raise preflop could just as easily have been AQ. By leading out post flop you would have a very good chance of taking the pot down.

i meant more about the general predictability of reasonably tight players, it would be a poor idea to very consistently bet the same amounts preflop with given great hands to start (AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AK ...)

so the odd time for deception one could limp with say AK or AQ or so, correct?

I think preflop raises should generally be larger with JJ->AA than with AK, AQ as they are favoured to win..

Don't limp for deception at the low stakes tables. No point. But betting different amounts with stronger hands will only tell observant opponents that you have strong hands when you bet more preflop.

-'rilla

Gorilla, at what stakes would you say deception plays a more significant role ?

Also, i'm not sure i follow what you said "but betting different amounts with stronger hands will only tell observant players...." - what do you mean.

If you always raise to 30c with AKs, AKo, AQs, AQo etc. and always raise to 50c with AA, KK, QQ and JJ. It's not going to take a player that is paying attention to your action preflop to easily gauge what hands you're playing.

So I have AQs and you raise to 50c, It's an easy fold for me in a spot where you want me to call.

Also, I have KK and you raise to 30c and it's folded to me. I know I'm only dodging an ace at the worst. A good time for me to slow play you a little and hope you pair your kicker.

Or I have KK and you raise 50c and the flop comes Q high. I'll be able to make a crying fold if you come out swinging becuase I know you wouldn't bet JJ strong but would bet QQ and AA strong.

But if you keep your raises steady. I can't infer this kind of valuable information as easily.

As for when to use deception, not until you notice your opponents playing tighter and weaker becuase the betting amounts are more subsantial. Maybe around 50 buyin.

-'rilla

Reraise here to 2 flat and take down the pot.

I think there is a quite big risk that one of the three players left would call a $2 bet at these tables. Raises often get no respect. I also think that there is a great possibility that the .65 bettor didn´t think about his bet related to the pot. "Now I´m gonna bet big, just as big as the preflop bet".
With three other players still in the game, having put some decent money into the pot
[now I just saw that the other two huys folded, and there were only the two of you left]
Still, bluffing is hard at these tables. And even if he doesn´t have a queen or three, if he calls you you have the same odds of hitting something on turn and river (though you win if blank).

After some thinking, I decided 'rillas advice was the best one.

W.

It was bet and folded to bsphan so you don't need to worry about raising into a large field. I don't know about the respect issue, but you've got to learn to attack weakness.

Originally Posted by Waggho

After some thinking, I decided 'rillas advice was the best one.

W.

w00t

-'rilla

Thanks Gorilla! I definitely agree and most of the time I change my preflop betting on good starting hands, so there isn't really any consistency. Of course raises with AQ, AJ et tend to be smaller and JJ-AA or AK are higher but not always the same.

It'll obviously dependon position and what's happening around me as well. If there's a ton of limpers I'm likely to raise more irrelevant of whether I have AQ or AA just because I want to eliminate chasers - for instance.