Folding KK preflop?...

Ok this hand has been bugging me for a while, and I can't seem to come up with a satisfactory answer so please, give your opinions. It's in a $1-$2 live game, 10 players, hero is in BB with KK. There are five limpers, so I bump it up to $20 and the first limper re-raises me to $80 total. He has just over $500 and i have him covered. I've played a lot with this guy and we both have a pretty damn good idea of how each other plays, I have a reputation for being tight-aggressive, he also jokes and tells everyone every night that I can never lose. I've taken $1000's off this guy in the past, so he's always weary when in a pot with me. Also note that in THIS PARTICULAR casino, when someone limp-re-raises, they invariably have AA or KK. I have never seen anyone make this move with anything less.

Ok, back to the hand. Everyone folds and it's back to me - $60 to call with about $420 behind. As I mentioned before, against most people, their range is AA/KK 100% of the time, but with villain, maybe 80%. He likes to try moves and he wants my chips more than anyone's. My options are to fold or re-raise as i don't have odds to call for a set if he has AA. I figure that of the 2/10 instances that he doesn't have AA, i'm going to win $169 100% of the time, as I'm always going to re-raise and he's obviously going to fold cos he was making a move. Of the 8/10 instances he does have AA, my equity is terrible, it's probably going to get all in for a $1000 pot, which I'll lose 7 in 8 times, giving me an expectation of -$875. Even if I re-raise to say, $200 and manage to get away from it when he moves in, i stand to lose that $269 80% of the time, for an expectation of -$215. So after all this thought, and running through the math roughly in my head, i finally fold my KK. Obviously if I was sat there with 100BB's i wouldn't think and just shove, but we were 250BB's deep so things were a bit more complicated. Any thoughts?

if you are sooo sure that he only limp/reraise with no less than AA or KK, i have no problem folding KK with 250 BB deep especially in live games where ppl tend to 3 bet or 4 bet pretty tight. When you decide to fold, just put your cards in the muck quietly, say "nice hand" and never show the rest of the table what you have.

Originally Posted by jimmyc

Also note that in THIS PARTICULAR casino, when someone limp-re-raises, they invariably have AA or KK. I have never seen anyone make this move with anything less.

as long as no one thinks your EVER folding KK its ok to do it in certain spots like this when your deep enough.

just never fold it 100bb deep

Originally Posted by tarath

as long as no one thinks your EVER folding KK its ok to do it in certain spots like this when your deep enough.

just never fold it 100bb deep

wrong

please expand badgers?!

he's just saying that if you are so sure someone only has AA/KK then you can fold for 100bb as well. a read is a read. most automatically think 100bb = auto stack off with KK but of course there aren't many absolutes in poker.

there are two automatics in nlhe:

1) calling an all in with the nuts
2) folding to an all in with the nut low

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

he's just saying that if you are so sure someone only has AA/KK then you can fold for 100bb as well. a read is a read. most automatically think 100bb = auto stack off with KK but of course there aren't many absolutes in poker.

This.

I mean... there's a nit I play against regularly who's 11/1/3 or something you think it's right to stack off for 100BBs vs. him. There are several 100nl regs that I would not stack off with KK preflop with in certain situations.

Originally Posted by jimmyc

Ok this hand has been bugging me for a while, and I can't seem to come up with a satisfactory answer so please, give your opinions. It's in a $1-$2 live game, 10 players, hero is in BB with KK. There are five limpers, so I bump it up to $20 and the first limper re-raises me to $80 total. He has just over $500 and i have him covered. I've played a lot with this guy and we both have a pretty damn good idea of how each other plays, I have a reputation for being tight-aggressive, he also jokes and tells everyone every night that I can never lose. I've taken $1000's off this guy in the past, so he's always weary when in a pot with me. Also note that in THIS PARTICULAR casino, when someone limp-re-raises, they invariably have AA or KK. I have never seen anyone make this move with anything less.

Ok, back to the hand. Everyone folds and it's back to me - $60 to call with about $420 behind. As I mentioned before, against most people, their range is AA/KK 100% of the time, but with villain, maybe 80%. He likes to try moves and he wants my chips more than anyone's. My options are to fold or re-raise as i don't have odds to call for a set if he has AA. I figure that of the 2/10 instances that he doesn't have AA, i'm going to win $169 100% of the time, as I'm always going to re-raise and he's obviously going to fold cos he was making a move. Of the 8/10 instances he does have AA, my equity is terrible, it's probably going to get all in for a $1000 pot, which I'll lose 7 in 8 times, giving me an expectation of -$875. Even if I re-raise to say, $200 and manage to get away from it when he moves in, i stand to lose that $269 80% of the time, for an expectation of -$215. So after all this thought, and running through the math roughly in my head, i finally fold my KK. Obviously if I was sat there with 100BB's i wouldn't think and just shove, but we were 250BB's deep so things were a bit more complicated. Any thoughts?

How does he play vs a call?

i'd hate to just call here i think - he'd play it exactly as if he had AA and i'd have gained no new information.

Well, if you are sure about your read it's a fold.

If you had AA it's a nice place to slowplay.