Good laydown? You decide!

Hand Number: 103,162,237
Table Number: 1,111,298
Event Name: Bugsys Bonus Point N/L (#811817)MNHF
Event Started: Tuesday July 27th 12:30:09 PM CDT 2004
Event Type: PokerPages Tournament
Event Buy-In: BC Member (1,500 BBP added)
Game: No Limit Hold 'em
Level III: 75/150 Blinds (25 Minimum Chip)
Average Stack: 13,477.08 (10,000 starting chips)
Remaining Players: 371 (500 started)
Seat 1 : BostonSox0524 starts with 14,275
Seat 2 : CaptKirk starts with 8,400
Seat 3 : BEASLEY starts with 18,375
Seat 4 : JB_21 starts with 7,050
Seat 5 : MojoHillbilly starts with 10,675
Seat 6 : rounderman3 starts with 23,375
Seat 7 : dwarfman1990 starts with 19,000
Seat 8 : CaseyWhite starts with 1,100
Seat 9 : SRcoach starts with 10,150
Seat 10 : headfollower starts with 9,075
Seat 3 : BEASLEY has the dealer button
>>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<<
dwarfman1990 dealt down Ks Qd
JB_21 posts the small blind 75
MojoHillbilly posts the big blind 150
rounderman3 calls 150
dwarfman1990 calls 150
CaseyWhite folds
SRcoach calls 150
headfollower calls 150
BostonSox0524 folds
CaptKirk calls 150
BEASLEY folds
JB_21 folds
MojoHillbilly checks
>>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ Ac 6s Kh ]
MojoHillbilly checks
rounderman3 checks
dwarfman1990 checks
SRcoach checks
headfollower checks
CaptKirk checks
>>>DEALING TURN<<< [ Kc ]
MojoHillbilly checks
rounderman3 checks
dwarfman1990 checks
SRcoach bets 150
headfollower folds
CaptKirk folds
MojoHillbilly folds
rounderman3 calls 150
dwarfman1990 raises 5,000 to 5,150
SRcoach calls 5,000
rounderman3 folds
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ 5c ]
dwarfman1990 checks
SRcoach bets 4,850 and is all-in
dwarfman1990 called time
dwarfman1990 folds
SRcoach takes back 4,850
SRcoach does not show hand
SRcoach wins 11,425
dwarfman1990: 3 kings
>>>SUMMARY<<<
Hand Ended: Tuesday July 27th 1:00:50 PM CDT 2004
Total Pot: 11,425
Board: [ Ac 6s Kh Kc 5c ]
Seat 1 : BostonSox0524 did not bet, folded pre-flop
Seat 2 : CaptKirk lost 150, folded on the turn
Seat 3 : BEASLEY (button) did not bet, folded pre-flop
Seat 4 : JB_21 (small blind) lost 75, folded pre-flop
Seat 5 : MojoHillbilly (big blind) lost 150, folded on the turn
Seat 6 : rounderman3 lost 300, folded on the turn
Seat 7 : dwarfman1990 lost 5,300, folded on the river
Seat 8 : CaseyWhite did not bet, folded pre-flop
Seat 9 : SRcoach bet 5,300, won 11,425, net +6,125, did not show hand
Seat 10 : headfollower lost 150, folded on the turn


I thought he made his flush for sure. Note that when I asked him what he had he said K 6, but that probably isn't true!

I don't want to come down on you too hard, but I see a lot of problems with this hand. I want to point them out to you to help, but I also want to point out that you are obviously doing something right to get as far as you did in this tournament.

You limped in with KQo. Did you just suffer a bad beat? Are you in the bubble? Did you have some sort of read on someone?

You check on the flop. This is a perfect time to throw out a feeler bet. You can isolate any A that is out there. A bet here can push out any QT, Ax, Kx, suited cards hoping for a flush, etc. It can also give you a lot of information about what other people are playing.

You check-raised on the turn. This did not exclaim strength. You had already limped, then checked now you are check-raising. What this did is tell srcoach that you thought he was bluffing. When that 2nd K came down, that is the time to raise and re-raise.

I can't see this guy making his flush. On the turn he raised, then called a pot sized re-raise when he was on a flush draw? If I'm putting him on a hand, I'd say K6 is a stretch, he'd probably re-raise you all in after the turn. I'm gonna guess AQ or AJ.

This is one of those situations to pull out the Ripptyde in you. As it was he put the pressure on you and made you decide how many chips it will cost you to play this. If you had been the agressor, you could have turned the tables and made him decide how he wants to play. You had the big stack on this person, lean into him.

...already filled my asshole quota for the day...

Well I have only been playing since April so I haven't mastered every fine detail of the game yet.

But maybe I will get better soon (I've got Super System on order from Amazon, should come on 6th August, woohoo!).

Thanks for your help Humphrind.

Hi Dwarf, forget Super System, its a nice read but most of the material is dated. Theory of Poker would be a lot better and its a book you will have to re-read and gain new knoledge each time.

Aye, your game needs some serious work. ToP is a great place to start.

Just to note, I think it was much more likely that he did in fact have K6 than he had a flush. Why he'd call preflop with that, I don't know. But the post flop play looks more like K6 than a flush draw (which would've made a horrid horrid call on the turn). He checks on the flop to try and check raise. On the turn he's slowplaying his boat, and on the river he shoves all in. A lot of players play a boat that way, which makes it pretty obvious, but they still do it.

As for the laydown, I don't know. You put so many damn chips in on the turn that it seems strange to lay that hand down at the river. I think you were beat, but at that point it may have been worth it to call anyway.

So what you're saying is that it would have been better to stuff another 5'000 chips in the pot even though you are 99% sure that you're beat?

Originally Posted by dwarfman1990

So what you're saying is that it would have been better to stuff another 5'000 chips in the pot even though you are 99% sure that you're beat?

You're not even close to 99% sure you're beat. For starters, Kx where x isn't a 5 or 6 plays the same way. Any Ace might play like that. I certainly wouldn't worry about paying off a back-door flush draw calling that turn bet.

The over-bet on the turn set-up a situation where you couldn't get away from this hand cheaply.

{This post has been removed}

Originally Posted by dwarfman1990

So what you're saying is that it would have been better to stuff another 5'000 chips in the pot even though you are 99% sure that you're beat?

michael may be 99% sure this guy had K6, but I'm reading and re-reading the hand history and I can't see someone playing an K6 like this, unless they are not very good, or V-E-R-Y good (it's funny how those overlap). Same story with the s. I think you should have bought the information for that aditional 5,000 chips.

I know 5,000 chips is a lot, it's almost half your stack. But you are not wasting them, you have a good chance to win the pot (much more than 1%)

On the river I see a big opportunity for srcoach to bluff, a check raise on 4th street followed by a check on the river. I also see a big bet from srcoach, I can't help but put this together. If he had half a hand he did the right thing. Again, your play seems very weak on this hand. I probably would have done what srcoach did.

Just a side note, I finished 44th in this tournament, 17 places out of the money.

Thanks for your advice everyone. I think that weakly played hand might be a result of me being a large stack and not being used to it. I am usually having to grind out results with a short stack.

{This post has been removed}

Originally Posted by Humphrind

michael may be 99% sure this guy had K6, but I'm reading and re-reading the hand history and I can't see someone playing an K6 like this, unless they are not very good, or V-E-R-Y good (it's funny how those overlap).

Haha, where the hell is this 99% coming from? I'm probably more like 75% sure he's beat, but its tough to tell because very little information was got from the hand (except he must've had a strong hand by the turn, calling that gigantic bet - but that can be any K). All I said was that K6 makes a hell of a lot more sense than a flush draw.

There was only 900 chips or so in the pot when dwarfman bet 5k, with a board pair. Only a complete moron would call that on a flush draw. An ace would be a better call, since its such a ridiculous sized bet that it looks like a bluff. A flush draw probably can't even beat a bluff unless their flush hits, so that'd be a horrible horrible call, not even counting if the guy does have the set that the river could easily bring a board pair or pair the other guys hole card, which'd make the flush draw meaningless.

I've seen many many online players just call all the way down to the river and then shove all in (you guys must've seen this tons of times too). That seems to be the standard (obvious) internet way to play a boat, by your average player. A good player often disguises it much better, but an average player often does this every single time.

Originally Posted by Humphrind

On the river I see a big opportunity for srcoach to bluff, a check raise on 4th street followed by a check on the river. I also see a big bet from srcoach, I can't help but put this together. If he had half a hand he did the right thing. Again, your play seems very weak on this hand. I probably would have done what srcoach did.

And remember the 5x pot size bet on the turn by Dwarfman that looks like a bluff, or a rookie that just hit a big hand and doesn't understand that bets should be based on the size of the pot.

Because it looks like a likely bluff, a player could just call that with lets say a pair of aces, with every intention of shoving all in on the river no matter what hits. If he did read that crazy 5x pot size bet on the turn as a bluff, just called, and then shoves all in at the river to bully Dwarfman out (even when he did in fact have a set), this guy must be a hell of a player, with some major balls.

And hell, actually, thinking about it a bit more, that huge bet screams weakness from Dwarfman, even if he had the set. By betting that big, he's basically representing that he's terrified of getting outdrawn if he does have the set. When that club hits, you could figure that its more likely that a player that overbet on the turn is more likely to fold than one that did not. So for example, lets say the guy had KT. He calls on the turn reading that the other person is probably bluffing, but he's very worried about his kicker. The river comes a club. ALL IN! Its definitely worth a shot, considering that bet on the turn.

Originally Posted by Fnord

...already filled my asshole quota for the day...

Now I know I sucked a year ago, but that's just not nice!

raise preflop, you're the big stack
bet the flop, get information
dont overbet the turn, raise it to about 1000
if he calls use a blocking bet on the river, 2500 chips

i dont quite get your betting pattern at all, it makes no sense, and because it makes no sense, nothing your opponent does is going to make sense because you have nothing logical to base it off of. especially because you are big stack you should be raising and betting your ass off. and i really dont think you should have laid it down on the river after shoving so many chips in relentlessly on the turn, you fold to way less than your turn bet. i actually thought you were going for a check raise on the river for some reason but then you folded. theres really no way i check the river here. he may have very well had K6 but you cant really put him on that because who would ever call preflop with that.

and dont "forget super system," its a great book, and every book you can get your hands on will provide you with valuable information. make sure you use it to its full potential and read every section in the book on every type of poker. i think every bit of information from every accomplished player in every type of game will help you in a variety of situations. it cant hurt right?

Originally Posted by bair

raise preflop, you're the big stack
bet the flop, get information
dont overbet the turn, raise it to about 1000
if he calls use a blocking bet on the river, 2500 chips

i dont quite get your betting pattern at all, it makes no sense, and because it makes no sense, nothing your opponent does is going to make sense because you have nothing logical to base it off of. especially because you are big stack you should be raising and betting your ass off. and i really dont think you should have laid it down on the river after shoving so many chips in relentlessly on the turn, you fold to way less than your turn bet. i actually thought you were going for a check raise on the river for some reason but then you folded. theres really no way i check the river here. he may have very well had K6 but you cant really put him on that because who would ever call preflop with that.

I don't understand my play here either, this was a whole entire year ago when I was a fish!

hahaha just realized nice play

Originally Posted by dwarfman

I don't understand my play here either, this was a whole entire year ago when I was a fish!

oh, when you used to be a fish.... hehe j/k dman

*cough*FISH*cough*

- sed

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Originally Posted by Fnord

...already filled my asshole quota for the day...

Now I know I sucked a year ago, but that's just not nice!

Don't get yourself down. We could bump a thread of yours from a week ago and laugh about how absurdly bad you played.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Originally Posted by Fnord

...already filled my asshole quota for the day...

Now I know I sucked a year ago, but that's just not nice!

Don't get yourself down. We could bump a thread of yours from a week ago and laugh about how absurdly bad you played.

-'rilla

I would think of a witty comeback... but there really isn't one.

Nh, 'Rilla.