The Half-Stack Approach to NLHE

A major point in PNL was that 100bb is not an ideal stack size for the hand youre most likely to hit and want to continue with most often. That is top pair. It describes the Stack-to-pot ratio problem when 100bb deep with top pair. The conclusion becomes that tailoring you stack size to the hand you're most likely to make is +++EV.

few questions for the people experimenting with shortstacking:

1) have you found people are more or less likely to semibluff draws against you
a)are your semibluffs less effective (assuming you make them)

2) are they more or less likely to fire second barrels (or are you AI on the flop with any hand you are continuing with)

3)have any of the more difficult regs adjusted properly to the influx of 1/2 stacks into the game

4) are you now dumping small pairs to a single raise pf with no cold callers

since you can no longer effectively float (or so i assume), and probably have no fold equity vs. mid pairs, you require a set to continue postflop, and although you will get paid when that happens, it is going to be much closer to neutral EV depending on the size of the initial raise, ie. i would imagine a 4-5x opener is going to be very thin profit wise long-term for a 1/2 stack set hunter.

5) do you ever slowplay, ever see a need to. if not, are you becoming extremely exploitable or does the stack size make up for the transparency of your hand
on a related note, what hands is a 1/2 stack typically calling with postflop that he is not raising. are there any that fit this category

thats all i can think of for now

Are there any times we are getting away from TPTK/Overpair on the turn if we raised preflop and potted the flop?

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Even 100bb, but not as often that. Midstackers vs midstackers need twice as many stacks to achieve the rate of fullstackers vs fullstackers rates.

Here is where we disagree. First, most pots are pretty small even with deep money. Most people vastly under-estimate how important those pots are unless we're trapping someone way over-playing hands who will get trapped too often (and if this is the case we WANT to cover them.) Second, you're probably over-estimating your edge when getting it all-in against another full stack.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

with a full stack i missed out on value a bunch cuz i didn't want to play a big pot without a really big hand.

DING DING DING DING DING

We have a winnar!

Originally Posted by pgil

1) have you found people are more or less likely to semibluff draws against you
a)are your semibluffs less effective (assuming you make them)

With a bigger pot relative to money behind, lots of draws are getting it in. Still, it comes down to people needing a hand to call an all-in and that's not easy to come by in Hold'em.

Originally Posted by pgil

3)have any of the more difficult regs adjusted properly to the influx of 1/2 stacks into the game

No, because most of them suck.

Originally Posted by pgil

4) are you now dumping small pairs to a single raise pf with no cold callers

It depends.

Originally Posted by pgil

5) do you ever slowplay, ever see a need to.

I slowplay more often now (with great success) since I don't need to bump the flop to get all the money in. That said, I still play most of my hands fast.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by pgil

3)have any of the more difficult regs adjusted properly to the influx of 1/2 stacks into the game

No, because they all suck.

FYP and I seriously cant stress this point more.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Even 100bb, but not as often that. Midstackers vs midstackers need twice as many stacks to achieve the rate of fullstackers vs fullstackers rates.

Here is where we disagree. First, most pots are pretty small even with deep money. Most people vastly under-estimate how important those pots are unless we're trapping someone way over-playing hands who will get trapped too often (and if this is the case we WANT to cover them.) Second, you're probably over-estimating your edge when getting it all-in against another full stack.

It's difficult for me to decipher what you're saying since you're saying we want to play two different ways, actually. Are you saying that midstacking is optimal, yet when there are fullstacked donkeys then fullstacking is optimal? The reason I buy in full is because of all the fullstacked donkeys. I don't overestimate my edge vs them when felted for 100bb, that's for sure. Good regs is a different matter.

It looks to me like when playing midstacked we're losing out against poor deep players, which is bad big time, yet we're tying to make up for it by getting that extra 10-15bb in as a favorite when villian is committed to our midstack a lot more often than we would if we were deep. And sometimes we are the ones who are committed with the inferior hand. Alos, not getting pushed out of pots. That is quite an important factor, but on the flip side, we're unable to push others out as a midstack.

If the most donkeys ever had in their stacks were 50bbs then no doubt it would be optimal to play 50bbs and no higher. I do not see how the advantages listed out weigh pwning deep donkeys.

Personally, though, I am adversed to me playing midstacked because I'm only getting better at fullstacking, my history has been very poor with 20bb stacking, and I don't like leaving a table because I double up. I do, however, instantly agree that midstacking is probably very awesome when taking a shot at a higher stake. I'm not yet sure if I want to try this strategy. I'm guessing I'll be sorta lost preflop.

I'm intrigued.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($90.15)
BB ($61.20)
UTG ($171.35)
UTG+1 ($41.85)
MP1 ($93.35)
MP2 ($117.15)
MP3 ($244.25)
Hero ($47)
Button ($100)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A.
4 folds, MP3 raises to $3.5, Hero calls $3.50, 3 folds.

Flop: ($8.50) 6, 4, 6 (2 players)
MP3 bets $7, Hero raises to $21, MP3 raises to $247.75 (All-In), Hero calls $22.50 (All-In).

Turn: ($95.50) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($95.50) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $95.50

Results in white below:
MP3 has Tc Th (two pair, tens and sixes).
Hero has As Ac (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: MP3 wins $204.25. Hero wins $95.50.

Warpe, you didn't necessarily make more money there than had you been deeper and villian had folded somewhere. If you're both deep, villian isn't folding to your raise, a lot of players will get more than 50bb in here with TT, some will felt.

If villian had overs or a four or gutter or something AND isn't a donkey then we're talking.

Not many villains are shoving over with TT here if I'm full stacked, imo.

Yeah, it's going down that way quite rarely.

If youre both deep villain is c/f'ng the turn a huge % of the time and you're not getting shiat.

If the turn was a different card less than a 9 you *might* get him to do something stupid but its probably less than 20% of the time. And if the turn is J+ its maybe 5%.

Vs a super nit, probably. Vs a good player whom you have little history, probably. Vs anybody else, not likely.

If vs nit or good player, check turn bet river, make a little bit more since he'll put you on 88 or A7s a lot. TT calls that turn a lot anyways, but then wont call a lot of rivers.

Villian is a standard semitight thinking fish at 1/2. Poor play by me on this turn and vs this villian, but c'mon, he folds an underpair and some jacks right? gol. Probably would have called river too.

Dealt to wufwugy [6s 6d]
BIGLivesOn: folds
the_main: folds
wufwugy: raises $6 to $8
laststand77: folds
joker12676: calls $8
Franzwars118: folds
Reggie999: calls $8
Amorpheous: folds
futilewar: folds
*** FLOP *** [Js 4d 3c]
wufwugy: bets $18
joker12676: folds
Reggie999: calls $18
*** TURN *** [Js 4d 3c] [4c]
wufwugy: checks
Reggie999: bets $35
wufwugy: raises $59 to $94
Reggie999: calls $59
*** RIVER *** [Js 4d 3c 4c] [Jc]
wufwugy: checks
Reggie999: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wufwugy: shows [6s 6d] (two pair, Jacks and Sixes)
Reggie999: shows [Tc Ts] (two pair, Jacks and Tens)
Reggie999 collected $248 from pot

My big problem appears to be something like this hypothetical which i fuck up lots of times every day. So in the attempt to help myself, maybe I can help you guys. Here's where I'm losing a SHIT TON of money.

Villain is taggish reg and I have exactly 50bb.

I 4x raise preflop with AQ. He calls in the BB. Pot is 8.5bb (just call it 8, the .5 got raked off)

Flop is 259 rainbow. I cbet 6bb he check/minraises. Pot is now 12+6+8= 26bb and I have 40bb behind and its 6bb to call.

We can assume that if I shove over I'll only be called when beat and he'll fold any time he was on a pure resteal.

you can skip this part if youre lazy
We now have to make an assumption as to how often he'll call. I'd estimate he's only pure bluffing 15% of the time, and he's semi-bluffing like 65% of the time and will call 40% of the times i shove (Something redonkulous like A9 or maybe even TT/66-77 and the like which he might fold occasionally.) This means he's semibluffcalling about 52% of the time. The rest of the time he has the nuts.

Let me break that down more clearly
15% of the time he's purely bluffing and folds.
52% of the time he's calling and i have between 3 and 6 outs.
33% of the time he has the nuts/near nuts and I'm drawing dead.

skip to here
Ok I postulate that he's calling like 85% of the time. And I'm in pretty bad shape when he does, averaging maybe 2 or 3 outs in the long run. Working out the EV calc if I shove 40 into 26 and he calls 85% of the time I need to win a little under 35% of the time to break even. And with 2 or 3 outs on average I won't win 35% of the time. With an average of 2 or 3 outs I'll win between 4% and 6% of the time.

Thats a seriously -EV bet, almost 25.6bb in the negative.

Of course you can argue that he's not really calling 85% of the time. So lets just use my sexy chart and you can draw your own conclusions as to what % he needs to call (that is, what % youre drawing slim-to-dead) to make this a profitable shove

% he calls is on the left
% I win is on the right
EV of the shove is in bb.



You can see here that it's a -EV shove once he starts calling more than about 50% of the time. And I think he almost definitely will, he's not on a purebluff 50% of the time.

So, 50bbers, FOLD. I hope I've proven to you why with sexy EV charts, but i'm mostly hoping I prove it to ME. He has to be bluffing more than half the time for your shove to be +EV and HE AINT!

{obv he might do stupid shit like call with AJ or KQ or something retardo, but i think thats rare enough to ignore.}

Originally Posted by wufwugy

It's difficult for me to decipher what you're saying since you're saying we want to play two different ways, actually. Are you saying that midstacking is optimal, yet when there are fullstacked donkeys then fullstacking is optimal?

YES


Also re: your other stuff. When you just sit down, you don't know if there are full stacked donks and probably don't have many reads at all. Hence, play short then if there are deep fish in the waters (you have position on) top off or just stay after doubling through to make a big score. I'm advocating taking control of your stack size and using it to set-up favorable spots.

anyone remember some of the players on Party who used to dominate the 50 bb max tables, then when they raised it to 100 a lot of folks started dropping out of the mix... or dropping levels.. because they couldn't win anymore.

Originally Posted by jmontis

anyone remember some of the players on Party who used to dominate the 50 bb max tables, then when they raised it to 100 a lot of folks started dropping out of the mix... or dropping levels.. because they couldn't win anymore.

/nod

Now the regs are used to 100bb, throw them a curveball.

Unless you have specific deep money reads, I just don't see big edges in 120ish++ deep ABC TAgg on ABC TAgg violence. Counter-attack by punishing them for putting in bets light, under-estimating your range and playing implied odds hands to a raise.

can you guys just stop arguing Fnord is a genius.

your moms a genius

so let me get this straight....

some wonder whether or not the following is a good thing:

a) having a stack that covers donkey's stack
and
b) having a stack that is small than is a stronger player than you at the table

??

no shit man, come on

That's like having your cake and eating it too.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Outcome: MP3 wins $204.25. Hero wins $95.50.

Well Yeah.. but Villian won twice as much money as the Hero....

lol...didn't notice that. stupid converter.

is this geared more towards 6-max as opposed to FR? Since first reading this I haven't really noticed too many spots where I was put in a tough spot in my 100 NL FR game where I wished I was only 50BB deep. In fact, the couple of times I was, I am 90-95% sure I was way behind and would probably have stacked off too lightly if only 50 deep.

Not necessarily. Renton played 50bb deep at FR and stated for every time he wished he was deep there was 10 spots he was glad he was short.

This is a great cure for nittiness, I'm finding.

I'm amazed that I'm still getting nutcamped. Seems like a reason to try and lag it up. People at 50 and 100NL dont seem to know how to do anything except flop the nuts and minraise. They still call me OOP, hope to flop two pair or something, otherwise they fold.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

People at 50 and 100NL dont seem to know how to do anything except flop the nuts and minraise.

I can't wait to get there

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I'm amazed that I'm still getting nutcamped. Seems like a reason to try and lag it up. People at 50 and 100NL dont seem to know how to do anything except flop the nuts and minraise. They still call me OOP, hope to flop two pair or something, otherwise they fold.

amen to that!! these fuckers are driving me insane. i cant seem to catch on here. assholes. raise like a man, and show me your cards!! -confession of a donkey nit.

all that aside, DREW, i would think that half-stacking would be perfect for you. in fnord's OP, you immediately came to my mind.

hehe, i wonder if you can get cocco on the bandwagon, fnord. {sarcasm}

Fnord: Do you think half-stacking is more or less effective at six-max?

What about those 10-20bb shove-aces-and-kings strategies? Are they even feasible?

Are you opening up your preflop range, or tightening it?

I want to discuss blind defense, because it's an area that seems to be killing me a lot.

Taggy button 4xs and youre in BB. SB folds, you have AQs. You 3bet to about 14x. Villain calls.

You flop nothing. Pot is 28bb, and theres 36bb in your stack. Basically your only options are check/fold or shove, and you should be shoving way more than you should be check/folding obviously.

Is this really the ideal way to play it?

I tend to over-bet in that spot so I can shove for pot.

Another option, is that if you think you're being called tight then just pull the plug once you get called pre-flop unless you flop at least an Ace.

My biggest loser over 12k or so is QQ, my second biggest loser is less than 1/3rd the losses of QQ.

So it seems pretty obvious to me that I am overplaying QQ. Apparently even in a 6max game 50bb deep, QQ is not an automatic all-in pre hand.

The standard hand is, I raise 4x pre, I get 3bet, and I shove QQ. He basically is only calling with QQ+ and AK so I'm way behind or flipping almost every time I'm all in.

I really don't think calling and playing postflop is the way to go. It feels weak as hell folding QQ to a 3bet, but it looks to be correct against most players.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

My biggest loser over 12k or so is QQ, my second biggest loser is less than 1/3rd the losses of QQ.

So it seems pretty obvious to me that I am overplaying QQ. Apparently even in a 6max game 50bb deep, QQ is not an automatic all-in pre hand.

The standard hand is, I raise 4x pre, I get 3bet, and I shove QQ. He basically is only calling with QQ+ and AK so I'm way behind or flipping almost every time I'm all in.

I really don't think calling and playing postflop is the way to go. It feels weak as hell folding QQ to a 3bet, but it looks to be correct against most players.

this post is spew

If they are only calling your shoves w/AA, KK and AK your not doing it right.

Thats not even remotely true.

However, I just ran the math with Mr. Halvsame, and shoving QQ over the top of a 3bet is +EV. Its not hugely +EV, but its +EV and by definition better than a fold.

euph, why wouldnt you only call the 3bet, and shove non-A flops? or fire out what looks to be a cbet of 2/3? i feel you could still get away, but you would keep the 3bettors a bit more honest against you.

or start 3bet shoving more than QQ+/AK to loosen them up and get your premiums paid in stacks. maybe 88+/AQ+/AXs/67s-9Ts? those may be way off, but you would have the image of a monkey-shover and be live against most callers. maybe you only do that to the "regs" for a couple thousand hands to showdown and change your image...in their eyes.

read disclaimer below.

but, personally, i take more hands post flop. and, with a hand, i try and get it in. by the turn, i'm in. but, i can fold off a lot to pf aggression or bad flops.

Originally Posted by Chopper

euph, why wouldnt you only call the 3bet, and shove non-A flops? or fire out what looks to be a cbet of 2/3? i feel you could still get away, but you would keep the 3bettors a bit more honest against you.

or start 3bet shoving more than QQ+/AK to loosen them up and get your premiums paid in stacks. maybe 88+/AQ+/AXs/67s-9Ts? those may be way off, but you would have the image of a monkey-shover and be live against most callers. maybe you only do that to the "regs" for a couple thousand hands to showdown and change your image...in their eyes.

read disclaimer below.

Calling a 3bet with QQ and c/rai on a non-A board is probably fine, and it's probably the best way to extract from JJ and AQ (assuming JJ would fold to a shove pre, which I think is mostly true). I'm not sure. It's not a bad idea, but I'm not sure its a better idea than just shoving.

Halvsame and I worked this out, but it became a pretty lengthy explanation. I'll try and boil it down to worst case scenario:

Villain only 3bets with QQ+/AK and will always call my fourbet shove. What equity do I need against his range to break even by shoving over?

It turns out our break even point is just a smidge over 40%, and lo and behold QQ is 40.2% (still -EV but it's close).

Of course most opponents will 3bet wider than QQ+/AK, and indeed some will even call wider than that. But at least at my stakes by far most will only call your fourbet with these hands. Now we're facing the same hands WHEN CALLED as the above hypothetical but we're going to pick up the 18bb pot a significant percentage (as high as 20-25%) of the time depending on how lightly they're 3betting.

But now look what happens when he have something like JJ and the same worst case scenario:

JJ is a 36% dog against QQ+/AK, which comes out to about -7ishbb EV if villain calls 100% of the time. This is about 3.5 TIMES more -EV than QQ was. That's pretty significant. And every pocket pair below JJ is about 35% equity (34 for 22, 36 for TT) and little changes at that point.

Basically in this spot we might as well hold 22. It doesn't much matter. It has the same equity as JJ give or take a % or two.

We're bluffing. Of course we knew we were bluffing thats why its called a fourbet bluff. So we're hoping villain then puts us on a monster and folds, and yet an essential element of midstacking is that bad players call too much, and do so without implied odds. So we've reached a dichotomy. We can't really tailor our strategy around making people call too much and then simultaneously expect them to make big folds.

Clearly what I'm showing is that if you're finding a villain that is 3betting you lightly, you should shove more. A LOT more. Basically any pocket pair is shoveable against a guy who is 3betting more than about 5% of his hands ( 99+ AJs+ KQs AKo ). But then you need to be careful. If you continue to bluffshove over his 3bets and he tightens up his 3bet and call range, you're going to be in some majorly -EV situations.

My conclusions on the fourbet bluffshove:
Generally speaking, not worthwhile but in very rare circumstances where I know villain well and I know I'll play with him in the future, and I know he'll be paying enough attention to remember me. I don't think that happens very often at my stakes.

I hope that made sense.

made good sense. thanks for explaining.

now for a new "problem" to think on, if i may:

this came up today, and its not nearly as sophisticated as yours, but all the same i want to know how to figure it out, if possible.

most villains, at my tables 25NL, will call 3bets somewhat lighter than they should, but rarely will they call the shove w/o the standard range (KK+/AK, maybe a bit of QQ).

i hold KK oop. villain raises 4X ($1) from mp, i RR from sb to about $5, knowing only KK+ shoves over from this TAG. so, i can safely drop my KK, but i dont because i know theres a random chance he opens up on occasion. of course, he had it. but, how sure do i have to be to drop KK, as its a significant dog to AA? wheres my breakeven point? out of other regs, the more LAGgy ones, i can never really be sure enough to fold KK, but against this TAG, i was pretty much 99% sure. was that enough?

and, how do i figure the "maths?"

Originally Posted by Chopper

made good sense. thanks for explaining.

now for a new "problem" to think on, if i may:

this came up today, and its not nearly as sophisticated as yours, but all the same i want to know how to figure it out, if possible.

most villains, at my tables 25NL, will call 3bets somewhat lighter than they should, but rarely will they call the shove w/o the standard range (KK+/AK, maybe a bit of QQ).

i hold KK oop. villain raises 4X ($1) from mp, i RR from sb to about $5, knowing only KK+ shoves over from this TAG. so, i can safely drop my KK, but i dont because i know theres a random chance he opens up on occasion. of course, he had it. but, how sure do i have to be to drop KK, as its a significant dog to AA? wheres my breakeven point? out of other regs, the more LAGgy ones, i can never really be sure enough to fold KK, but against this TAG, i was pretty much 99% sure. was that enough?

and, how do i figure the "maths?"

you know my answer

Originally Posted by Chopper

made good sense. thanks for explaining.

now for a new "problem" to think on, if i may:

this came up today, and its not nearly as sophisticated as yours, but all the same i want to know how to figure it out, if possible.

most villains, at my tables 25NL, will call 3bets somewhat lighter than they should, but rarely will they call the shove w/o the standard range (KK+/AK, maybe a bit of QQ).

i hold KK oop. villain raises 4X ($1) from mp, i RR from sb to about $5, knowing only KK+ shoves over from this TAG. so, i can safely drop my KK, but i dont because i know theres a random chance he opens up on occasion. of course, he had it. but, how sure do i have to be to drop KK, as its a significant dog to AA? wheres my breakeven point? out of other regs, the more LAGgy ones, i can never really be sure enough to fold KK, but against this TAG, i was pretty much 99% sure. was that enough?

and, how do i figure the "maths?"

I'm not sure exactly how to figure the math on that one. I am so not a math guy. But stove says youre 22% equity against KK+. Which is surprisingly high.

Originally Posted by Chopper

but, how sure do i have to be to drop KK,

It's a mistake to fold KK regularly fully-stacked. How could it possibly be right half-stacked? And how many variations of this debate can we possibly come up with?

i agree, i just wanted to know how to do the math. and this seemed like the most basic example to use. i could transfer the math to the rest of the similar situations.

and, yes, martin, i knew your answer would be, "dont gamble with the reg-nits w/ KK when they 4bet push."

i just cant/wont lay it down.

Originally Posted by Chopper

i agree, i just wanted to know how to do the math. and this seemed like the most basic example to use. i could transfer the math to the rest of the similar situations.

and, yes, martin, i knew your answer would be, "dont gamble with the reg-nits w/ KK when they 4bet push."

i just cant/wont lay it down.

whoops i was thinking this was the most recent thread about folding KK preflop lol. i don't agree with folding KK preflop with a 1/2 stack. sorry about that.

no worries. i knew what you meant. and from where you were referring.

Recently I have been thinking about this exact thing and am quite glad I stumbled across this forum and found this thread.

The whole reason I was thinking about half stacking is because I was harking back to old Party Poker days when it was the only (or one of the few) site(s) around where you played 50bb poker.

I remember the .25/.50 NL games had a max buy-in of $25, getting in with TpTk was NOT a mistake.

Games were A LOT fishier back then (they were still good once they went to your standard 100bb games, however once people adjusted the games were no where near as good as before).

So, I wanted to see if I could re-create these "golden years" so to speak by playing half stack poker.

I just started doing it the other day and thus far I am happy wiht the results. While I don't have any significant wins to report, I do not have any significant loses either.

I want to put in about 50k hands or so and see what it looks like.

Also, I have noticed that if you stat out short (half stack) once you double up people who saw you buy in short mostly don't adjust to you now wielding a larger stack. They still play at you as if you are a fish with half a stack. So, if the table is good and you double up, tighten up a bit and you'll probably get paid off when you hit a big hand.

Im feeling generous, here's my stats for 13-tabling over the last 15 hours or so. Yes, I'm a rock. I assume that if youve played on any of my tables you know this pretty quick and I'm therefore not giving away too much information by dropping my vpip/pfr onto FTR :P



14 tabling, this is coming to about $23/hour.

what happned to you being a monster losing spewtard

I began playing 10/7 poker. So even when I spew I have QQ+

question is: now that you are half-stacking 14 tables, how does your winrate compare to full stacking?

what limits do you play? i have the information right there in your screenshot, but i am too stupid to build the equation to figure it out......so i thought i'd just ask.

Originally Posted by Chopper

question is: now that you are half-stacking 14 tables, how does your winrate compare to full stacking?

what limits do you play? i have the information right there in your screenshot, but i am too stupid to build the equation to figure it out......so i thought i'd just ask.

He is playing 50nl and these are some really weak halfstacking stats IMO. If he can't defend/play his blinds better and has to give up so much value in other positions because of 13 tabling he would likely do better dropping a few tables.(folded BB and SB to steal are really high)

Aye, I do almost no blind stealing/defending, and that's something I'm working on now. There was no particular reason I *wasnt* before, not like I *cant*, its just that I pounded into my head "play obscenely tight for 10k hands and see what happens and open up from there"

My UTG vpip is around 7%, My button is around 15% fwiw.

playing 11/8 isn't even all that bad in full ring, you just need to make your distribution by position a lot different.

Play like AQAK 77+ utg, and the top 25% or something otb.

This is 6m

Originally Posted by euphoricism

This is 6m

You have played poker a long time, why are you doing this at low stakes 6-max?

o wow

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Originally Posted by euphoricism

This is 6m

You have played poker a long time, why are you doing this at low stakes 6-max?

Proof of Concept, mostly. If I can run 2-3bb/100 with my hand basically face up, I'll do ok when I open up.

Originally Posted by Renton

o wow

wtf you knew this.

Dude, you are running 2-3ptbb ON A HEATER. I have an extremely hard time believing 3ptbb can be achieved playing 10/7 at six max. I know you are sick of hearing this, but a NITTY style !-at-all-= a LOW VARIANCE style.

You are going to have 100k break evens on a pretty regular basis if you continue to do this, ESPECIALLY if you move up higher and try to do this.

My case in point, on the FRNL forum on two plus two, there are a ton of regulars who think they are pretty good. They run like 11/6 or something and just grind it out 16 tabling or something, and very rarely make any big mistakes when they play. If you look at the monthly chat threads in that forum you'll immediately notice that they are CONSTANTLY bitching about variance, and posting their insane 75k b/e graphs.

All playing insanely nitty does with respect to your variance is deny you all the awesome HI-ev LO-variance plays that lags are constantly taking advantage of, like isolating limpers, 3betting light, stealing blinds, cbetting flops, getting sick value with one pair when ppl get sick of all the above actions, etc. These are generally all pretty low variance plays, and they aren't even fancy plays. IMO they are tenets of basic solid poker play.

Playing lag should have much less variance than playing like a nit no?

I dont disagree, and I see nowhere I am disagreeing or have disagreed. I fully plan on opening up. I ran rock-ass-tight for a specific reason.

FWIW I dont think I'm on a heater. I think the fact that I'm 50bb deep and not given credit, the fact that most of my opponents dont even know how tight I'm playing because they aren't running huds or paying attention, and the fact that most of my opponents are terrible calling stations preflop and playing fit-or-fold on the flop are combining into majorly +EV situations.

But yes, I fully intend on opening up a bit, particularly with steals. Hopefully getting to closer to 22/16 than 11/8.

I think this nit vs lagg crap puts way too much focus on what we're doing and not enough on what our opponents are doing.

Sorry i was arguing a different topic so ill stop.

I am forraying into short stacking to expand my understanding of the game. Comments on how this hand was played? Is the turn call OK?


Full Tilt Poker Game #4317312902: Table Gamma (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:37:10 ET - 2007/11/27
Seat 1: dh7889 ($86)
Seat 2: danielrt555 ($41.85)
Seat 3: I just made ($49)
Seat 4: SavageSC ($27)
Seat 5: kauch12 ($66.85)
Seat 6: JoshiQ ($49.25)
JoshiQ posts the small blind of $0.25
dh7889 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SavageSC [Tc Kh]
danielrt555 raises to $1
I just made folds
SavageSC calls $1
kauch12 folds
JoshiQ calls $0.75
dh7889 calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [2c Jh Qd]
JoshiQ checks
dh7889 checks
danielrt555 checks
SavageSC bets $3
JoshiQ calls $3
dh7889 has 15 seconds left to act
dh7889 folds
danielrt555 calls $3
*** TURN *** [2c Jh Qd] [Td]
JoshiQ checks
danielrt555 has 15 seconds left to act
danielrt555 bets $4.50
SavageSC has 15 seconds left to act
SavageSC calls $4.50
JoshiQ calls $4.50
*** RIVER *** [2c Jh Qd Td] [7s]
JoshiQ checks
danielrt555 has 15 seconds left to act
danielrt555 bets $33.35, and is all in
SavageSC folds

Fold pre-flop then fold again on the turn.

yea after calling of I realized his range crushes mine, if I'm lucky my hands at the bottom of his opening rangeid he is real bad. I'm really talking about the turn here. I don't think I have any fe raising here. He c/calls a dangerous flop and leads the turn. WTF mate?

i may be wrong by fnord, but i dont think you have the luxury of betting/semi-bluffing draws while shorting, unless they have 12+ outs. you are looking to draw with odds only, play mostly power cards, and get max value out of made hands. you bluff extremely rarely understanding you almost never have FE because of your stack size from the opening bell.

People still need a hand to call, also a lot of our opponents are multi-tabling and hence will avoid conflict in certain spots so they can focus attention on other hands (check/fold box.)

I like the flop bet a lot. It builds the pot and has a good chance of taking down the pot.

We turned bad, someone else woke up and there is still action to come. I'd hit the eject button there.

I'm not advcating passive driven by table poker here. I'll leave that for the guys spamming banner ads.

I actually played some last night. down $10 i think playing 40bb at 50nl. Didnt really want to play at all then i thought ''i cud play short for fun'' so i did.

It was a bit of a rollercoaster but i kinda liked it.

BTW ppl stop arguing 100bb vs 50bb. Fnord is right, anyone going against him is incorrect.

Fnord may i sign up to your newsletter??

Thoughts on what happened during play!!

Stacking off with TP is great vs ppl who open-limp/call in LP whern we are OOP in blinds. their range is full of easily dominated hands its awesome (ie JT types vs my ATo).

I did assume SCs and drawing isnt good for shorting (i assaumed bcoz i didnt read thias thread till today).

Do ppl 3 bet lighter?? one guy 3 bet A8s vs my 99. i 4 bet it just to see what ppl do it with (yea its bad but hey its only 20bb )

3 bet sizes are hugely important since betting too small PF can give you alot of problems. WHat do we like to do here then??

Bet greater than 3.5bb IP, well we have to right?? 5-8xBB?

The betsizing is really far more crucial than I thought it was.

in this thread: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...c.php?p=607540
Ok, so I don't think a 4x PFR is correct anymore. Since we tend to be tighter than our opponents, we'll flop hands worthy of stacking off on pretty often. If its then correct for villain to call our flop Cbets -- even when we have a good hand -- we lose money.

I think the "ideal" PFR is probably around 4.5x.

wtf how did i miss this thread?

I dont know. Start posting in it, you owe us.