The Half-Stack Approach to NLHE

I agree with PFR 3.5xBB is incorrect betsizing. i played 50bb last nitght for 1.3k hands and lost $200 shortstacking 100NL.

Im out of the office so i cant discuss alot right now. also ii felt 50bb is too much, 40bb is best bcoz im finding im overshoving alot of turns (tho i cud PFR more to combat this). Also 3 betting has become ghey with JJ and AQ bcoz i cant stand a 4 bet (can I?) or be confident im ahead on owe flops or Axx boards.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

I agree with PFR 3.5xBB is incorrect betsizing. i played 50bb last nitght for 1.3k hands and lost $200 shortstacking 100NL.

Im out of the office so i cant discuss alot right now. also ii felt 50bb is too much, 40bb is best bcoz im finding im overshoving alot of turns (tho i cud PFR more to combat this). Also 3 betting has become ghey with JJ and AQ bcoz i cant stand a 4 bet (can I?) or be confident im ahead on owe flops or Axx boards.

hands play so much easier if you aim for a target SPR that allows you to get your stack all in easily on the flop or river, given whichever will work best for your hand. Don't use a standard raise, adjust it to make the pot play easier.

I use to half-stack it at crazy full ring tables "back in the day". I would buy in short, wait for a big hand and hope to get action. The idea was that I would have no hard decitions postflop. It worked great for a long time, since people still made crazy calls thinking they could outplay me postflop (like all the pro's do).

I think the main reason it works today is that there are so many horrid smallstack players around now that the good are hard to spot at first.

Take the TT hand in this tread, yesterday I had TT (overpair) and got it allin vs a 40bb stack with AQo on the turn. So in the end, as said by someone else already, most players SUCK.

There are money to be won and how you do it is up to you. Play the way that works for you, we are not all the same. If you struggle with FS play then maybe HS is the way to go. FS works for me, so I'm going to stick with that untill I feal I need to change.

BTW i havent read about SPRs yet. i started the book on the REM section. thought i had to read that part first but w/e.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

BTW i havent read about SPRs yet. i started the book on the REM section. thought i had to read that part first but w/e.

Read the whole damn book! And hurry, you've had it for 6 months.


So with all this info here, why the hell is there still FTR regs 20BB short stack ratholing at UB? Have we not figured out that 20BB ratholing is a deuchebag way to play yet?

{something about tears quenching thirst here}

Originally Posted by HalvSame

{something about tears quenching thirst here}

I've tried applying the short-stacking strategy multiple times... for my efforts:

-$950... @ 100NL in 1 month (and no that wasn't a lot of hands.)

And Yes, I fucking suck.

Originally Posted by HalvSame

{something about tears quenching thirst here}

It's all good, I just found it funny that some still do it. Is it seriously a profitable way to play for most. I get the 50BB and even 40BB but 20?

If the definition of "profitable way to play for most" is "most would be able to make a small profit from it", I'd say yes. If you say "more profitable for most than 50BB+ when on their A-game at a well selected table", then I'd say no.

(not considering ethics/fun factor)

I've heard some people can 16 table it for a solid 2.5ishbb/100.

Originally Posted by kingnat

I've tried applying the short-stacking strategy multiple times... for my efforts:

-$950... @ 100NL in 1 month (and no that wasn't a lot of hands.)

And Yes, I fucking suck.

The variance is indeed high. I dropped ~15 stacks yesterday in about 1800 hands. But 10ish came back today within about 800 hands.

I tried shortstaking a little bit lastnight and I found myself not folding TP, not having implied odds preflop, not gaining/loosing more than I could have during any given hand, not bluffing in big pots, cbetting and always being commited, going south, and finally, playing uninspired uncreative boring poker.

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

...playing uninspired uncreative boring poker.

that's the point. when the great majority of your decisions are automatic, poker becomes boring and EASIER. add on more tables or move up. i kinda feel bad for the pros who play 10/20NL with 30/25 stats on 12 tables at 6max. it's like there's no challenge for them anymore.

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

I tried shortstaking a little bit lastnight and I found myself not folding TP, not having implied odds preflop, not gaining/loosing more than I could have during any given hand, not bluffing in big pots, cbetting and always being commited, going south, and finally, playing uninspired uncreative boring poker.

your killing me. stop it. seriously. have you played at a table with yourself? i dont know about creativity when it comes to you, unless youve changed your game DRASTICALLY, you robot.

j/k, had to get my shot in.

shorting is not drawing/chasing big hands. its not bluffing. you cant be the bully when short. you have to make your hand and get the money in...NOW. if you wait, or cant get it in (another problem...lol), you will get beat. felt flops, get paid. they will eventually play back at you thinking you are an idiot...only to find you are always ahead when you felt a hand.

I have tired shorting also, and have not had a great time of it. But the reason I'm not doing too well is I am not adjusting properly to being less than full. I am instinctively taking pot control lines on the turn, when I should be preparing to put the rest in. I am not taking the pots down that I should because my opponent doesn't want to showdown his hand against my AI. Basically, take away 75% of the benefits of playing short and keep all of the drawbacks, and that is how I was playing.

I would still prefer playing full against a spewy station (such as myself) than to play short against a bunch of nitty tags, but you do what you have to.

heres a question for fnord. the only person that seems to have the hang of shorting...

i wonder what it would be like with 70bbs and waiting for the TURN? the turn is the toughest street to play, right? why not put your opponents to the test there?

you raise pre, cbet flop, shove turn. if he is dragging 2nd pair, he bails. if he has a combo, he just lost half his equity and cannot call an overbet. if he has a gutshot, he cant call...no implieds. but, eventually, he will play back at you. i dont know if that will fall into traps, but surely you have a large enough stack to balance out with some draws and connectors. you just have to play them the same way. turn shoving your monsters just like your TPTK.

thoughts?

i think the problems you guys are having is that you are not felting soon enough. pot control, i would think, is only used with a read against a villain.

i could be way off, but why not put the decision to most players (not good LAGs, but the nits) on the street where they have all their troubles while you still have a good amount of FE?

Well chopper work it out..

You 4x pre. villain calls. Call it 9x pot with blinds. There is 66bb left in your stack.

7x cbet on the flop. Called. 14x pot going into the turn with 58bb behind. You shove the turn, 58bb into 14. Here's the EV chart (in BB)

%call on the left (sorry cut that out of image im a donkey -- so if villain calls 60% of the time you need to win about 35% of the time to break even PRE RAKE)



Personally, i think that shows a losing proposition, particularly compared with ...

if we had a 50bb, we 5x pre (what I do because my villains still suck enough to call it liberally) 10bb pot, 45bb stack. I pot the flop and get called. 20bb pot, 35bb behind. Much less of an overbet shove (which looks more bluffy IMO) and check out the call/equity range. Specifically note for comparison's sake the same 35% equity range. If I have 35% equity... I don't care if they call or not. If they call EVERY SINGLE TIME, I'm break even. And I make extra my money when they fold. Granted not many hands have 35% equity on the turn but thats good for illustrative purposes as it compares to the 70bb hand.



Boils down to the fact that theres a lot more places where villain can make you -EV in the 70bb example than the 50bb example. That's not to say its not profitable, if you feel you have significant folding equity, it might be. But it would have to be *significant*, and after he sees you do that massive overshove twice, that folding equity is going bye-bye. If you have the best hand, thats obviously good, but you're more likely to be behind as he tightens up and starts nutcamping.

In theory.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Well chopper work it out..

You 4x pre. villain calls. Call it 9x pot with blinds. There is 66bb left in your stack.

7x cbet on the flop. Called. 14x pot going into the turn with 58bb behind. You shove the turn, 58bb into 14. Here's the EV chart (in BB)

my math states, 4X pre...9X pot. fine. but when i cbet 7X and get called, it becomes 14X + the 9X already in for 23X, right?

it also leaves me 59 behind. but, thats a bit picky.

i think thats about right, into most villains. betting 2.5X the pot to look like an ass. besides, you have a little room for a 3way pot, or just stick multiways on the flop. you could/should also bet larger pre (5X min, at my stakes) and pot the flop, then, shove turn, imo.

i'll look at the chart. thanks for the work. i just had to get that in first, in case you need a rework.

besides, it was more of a philosophical question about pounding weakness where it occurs.

in general, w/o math, what do you think about sizing for the turn?

I think the first time youd take it, the second time youd have a 50%ish chance of taking it, and by the third time villain sees it he'll call almost 100%

And yes, I'm super duper math donk. Let's try that again...
4x pre. 66bb behind. villain calls. 9x pot. Cbet 7x called. 23x, 59bb behind. Turn shoving 59 into 23.

in relation to the graphs, i understand where you are coming from. and, i think thats fine, as you guys are talking 100NL at the lowest from what i gather.

if tried at 25NL, though, you would need to overbet MUCH larger, as these guys wouldnt know a fold button if it were in a bikini. you have to get their attention.

and you want them to call your overbets. you arent bluffing/semibluffing. you may be missing value, but thats another calculation, as this is off the top of my head, philosophically.

so, by the graph, if villain is calling my hammer only 10% of the time, what do i care? i will be way better than that. calling 10% of the time, not taking reads into account, would suggest him hitting a monster to call, right? so, if 90% of the time, they are folding, i could shove almost any turn with almost anything. even if he calls as high as 40% of the time, i only have to win 5%-10% of the time. i think i'll be ahead of that.

again, i am reserving the right to be completely wrong here. i am just trying to put a new spin on this topic while you guys shorting are working out the finer points of the strat.

thanks for humoring me. i'm only trying to think "outside the box."

Well the idea then is to find the exact overbetshove size *most* villains will call with bad hands. Goes back to that NLT&P statement that your bluffs should be exactly enough to get the job done and not a penny more.

yes, understood, but dont you want a cushion of some kind? why play on such razor thin edges at 100NL? shouldnt we save that for the big boys?

not really sure what you mean

Half-stacking/short-stacking is great for mindless play to clear bonuses and rakeback.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

not really sure what you mean

what i meant was...

you say that you are calculating exactly what the proper bet size is to elicit a call when villain has a 35% chance of winning because it is rare that he will have more than that by the turn. so, essentially, overbetting by too much will fold off the hands you want to call your push, right?

i am saying...why bother bet sizing right down to the penny for 35%? why not overbet it a touch more, so you have a "cushion." say you overbet to the point he can only call with a 45% chance of winning. you can misread his range a bit, and he is still calling unprofitably, AND you increase your chances he wont call in the first place. you effectively eliminate a little more of his calling range from the bottom up...or bump him off a little better hand he may have otherwise called with.

45% = set
^
|
|
35% = two pair/6 out draw

if you size your stack/bets to where your push "should" bump out 45% you not only pick up some more pots when you were behind, but you also force him, if he decides to, to call with even worse odds....making it an even bigger mistake by the FToP.

if variance is frustrating you, stop trying to bet size absolutely correctly to the penny with players at 50NL or 100NL that cant calculate their equity against your range, much less fold two pair to begin with.

its like telling me to pot the flop against a likely flush draw because i play 25NL, where they WILL chase. sure, he still wouldnt have odds to chase if i bet half the pot, but he would be much more likely to call that bet. why not force him to pay as steep a penalty as possible instead of worrying over the bet size that just barely takes away his odds? why not give myself/yourself some "cushion?" get a few more of those sklansky bucks when you can. if he folds, great, you got what you wanted anyway.

i hope i'm articulating my point. probably not.

you say that you are calculating exactly what the proper bet size is to elicit a call when villain has a 35% chance of winning because it is rare that he will have more than that by the turn. so, essentially, overbetting by too much will fold off the hands you want to call your push, right?

No no no otherway around. The 35% is *us* winning (sucking out) not him. Obviously if we shove with 50%+ equity we're +EV by definition whether he calls 0% of the time or 100% of the time. The question is when we shove with LESS than 50% equity -- how often does our semibluff shove need to work? That is, how many times do we need him to fold and we take whats in the pot compared to how often he calls and we lose the pot. Does the former pay for the latter?

I see your point. You're saying if we shove xBBs and get called y% of the time, then when we shove MORE than xBBs we should expect to get called LESS than y% of the time. In a vacuum this is probably true, but I think after villain sees us do it once, it won't be true anymore, and we can easily start taking the worst of it when villain tightens up his range and nutcamps us.

if you size your stack/bets to where your push "should" bump out 45% you not only pick up some more pots when you were behind, but you also force him, if he decides to, to call with even worse odds....making it an even bigger mistake by the FToP.

The problem is where do you draw that line. Extreme example for the sake of well, example. You buy in for 1000BB and shove 996bb into a 4bb pot. He'll fold an enormously huge % of the time, and when he calls when he's behind he'll indeed be making a HUGE mistake as dictated by the FToP. In that aspect the above quote is dead on.

But your logic breaks down when you realize villain will only call a bet that size when you are drawing dead dead dead. Yes he folds a lot and we take the pot, but we don't take it enough to compensate for the one time he calls with the nuts. The amount of times he folds just won't pay for the times he calls and busts us.

Thats what the EV chart shows: How often do we need to take the pot (or suck out) to compensate for the fact that when he calls and wins we lose our stack? So if we estimate our villain will call our shove 40% of the time then we need to suck out about 20% of the time in order to break even. Obviously if we suck out more than 20% of the time (we have greather than 20% equity) we make money, and obviously if villain calls less often we make money. However the converse is that if villain calls MORE than 40% of the time and/or we suckout LESS than 20% of the time, we lose money. That simple.

Hope that cleared it up.

He still wouldnt have odds to chase if i bet half the pot, but he would be much more likely to call that bet. why not force him to pay as steep a penalty as possible instead of worrying over the bet size that just barely takes away his odds?

This is true, if villain will call badly for 20bb AND he'll call badly for 40bb, obviously pushing the larger is better.

However when we get into the realm of big overbets, the most likely thing to happen is that villain will fold for the first one and after that he'll start nutcamping you. You have to make sure the amount of times he folds plus the amount of times he calls and you suck out will pay for the few times he calls and you *don't* suck out. The times he calls when behind just don't even matter in this discussion. Those spots are ALWAYS +EV and of course the more money you have on the table when villain makes a bad all-in call the better. Thats the easy part. Its the other stuff that gets tricky and is really the crux of the strategy. I'm not sold that with a 70bb strategy villain can't just nutcamp you.

thanks for taking the time to break that down so thoroughly. like i said, i hadnt thought it through, i just kind of threw some shit at the proverbial wall. 70 bb's sounds good, to me, for setting up a turn push, but it will lead to nutcamping...that is clear. sort of like when the 85/65 sits at your table and starts felting random shit preflop...everyone waits for TT+, AQ and busts him real fast.

i guess i was trying to relate more to MY villains than all of yours. you guys seem to play much smarter opponents. i get called a lot when i shove. and, by all sorts of stuff that has very little equity in the pot. my bluffs get picked due to this. lets say i have a 20 bb pot, and 35 bb's left in my stack. i shove the paired A on the turn when i cbet the first A with a psb and got called. say the board is 8 9 A A. i get called too often by 44 or 67, basically, shit that has NO business calling a turn push with such little equity after such strong advertisement. but, they do.

thats why i was saying, if you carry a larger than 50bb stack (stack sizes are hypothetical here), you stand a better chance at bumping them off. but, maybe these morons would call a 100 bb push. who knows.

i'm getting off topic, and hijacking the thread (never my intent).

but, fwiw, i dont think anyone should short-stack at 25NL, thats just where i play. but, if you could find the intimidating "push size," whether it be for the flop or turn, it would take forever for your villains to adjust to you. they just dont play back at you down here. thanks again.

Just started using this strategy @ 200NL today, it's awesome.

Any chance any of you guys could post a few hands? Ipoker isn't support by the HH converter

Cheers Fnord

I've always wondered how c-betting would work with a 20BB stack? Would it be possible to figure with a game theory style of approach?

Been messing with shortstack play at 25NL this week. Observations, some are repeats:
- Opps autmatically assume I suck with half BI; and this opinion NEVER CHANGES even as I build a 4x BI stack.
- TPTK is way g00t
- People STILL chase flush/str8 draws against pot overbets
- Opps will call AI on T/R with less than TPGK
- I notice frequent bluff raising; normal LAG players can turn into absolute maniacs

Thanks, Fnord.

This is eupho four tabling through january and running kinda bad (QQ, KK, AK all losers )

I need to play more hands, but im playing on vegas 24/7 and there arent many talbes running. Hurts me a lot.

one day does not a story make, but...

i shorted a bit today. something i havent done in over a year. i bought in for 60 bb's, and didnt do much unless i hit a flop.

yes, its boring. yes, its uncreative. but, i apparently suck right now when playing normal (deep). i cant seem to read hands, i cant seem to grab FE, and i am weak/tight on the turn due to monsters under the bed and some people pissing back at me.

so, i shorted to "get it over with" on the flop or turn. and, it worked like a champ. nice change of gears. up 16 ptbb/100 over 900 hands (small sample i know, its just a nice change from what has become the norm.)

here's the main reason, from Ed Miller, that i decided to give shorting another go...

Wild games cause some people trouble because their hand-reading skills get out of whack. It feels sort of like playing “blind.” Add in the big and fast betting, and crazy games can present some problems. While buying in full can help you get the most out of wild games if you’re already a master at playing them, buying in short is the key to a foolproof strategy. Limit your exposure to the crazy betting, and get your money in fast – preflop and on the flop. Doing that allows you to harness the built in advantage of playing better hands. You can ride that advantage to a solid, long-term winning strategy.

sorry this is a bit long, too. but, i could use some confirmation on what i see...

i think i am going to stick with this (shorting) for a bit. reasoning:

- no implieds against me...and not really a lot FOR me, either, so, i have to watch what i call with pp's. <TT require less than 10-15% of my stack to call, unless there's another jerkwad of dead money in the hand, in which case i call and pray for a triple up, or, in rare cases, i shove over. what happens if i shove over a raise and get called/pushed by AA? who cares? i am 80/20, but only lost 60 bb's. i have lost more on stupid bluffs lately out of monkey tilt/frustration. and i cant remember doing that but once yesterday in 1200 hands.

- it cuts out my drawing hands. thereby cutting out the numbers of times i cbet with weak/normal draws. i still cbet anything 8+outs and still plan to shove turn...mostly for balancing. this is likely where variance will get the best of me, but i dont see myself playing a lot of draws that commit me. i limp (not open limp) AXs from late, occasionally opening when folded to. i dont really play 78s or J9s unless there are already two in the pot, and i dont call raises with them. i either limp it, or if there are two or 3 callers to a big raise, i shove over pf. again, thats for balancing, but its also +EV. i have a hand that has about 30-40% equity pf, is never dominated, and i am getting better than 3:1 on my money. now thats what those hands are made for.

- my cbetting is WAY down. you just cant cbet like a monkey because you are almost committing yourself to the turn push...and you dont want to do that with air. therefore, when i cbet, i usually push over the minraise. sometimes they fold, mostly they dont. i see sets there, but i send a message...dont fuck with my flop bets. therefore, i open up the flops for more cbetting.

i have more reasons and more examples, and i will shoot them at you when the time is right. but, the point is: i am more likely to play MUCH better poker this way. and, i think i understand how to adjust to any adjustments being made against me, too. that should give me an advantage when metagame comes into play. again, they cant just worry about me, they also have to watch out for the other deeper stacks that are silently coming along when they get into pissing matches with me. however, i do NOT need to worry about that adjustment, as effective stacks are only what I carry to the table...not more.

oh, and i may have said this, but table selection doesnt become a huge factor, as most have me covered. i dont sit with 100-200 bb's and think, "why the hell am i always finding 3 shortys on a table?" however, SEAT selection is still a premium. i keep the deeper money on my right still, and, if possible, keep any other shortys on my left. but, i dont get too crazy with it because the other shortys really suck so far. they are playing/calling WAY too many draws.

this is TPTK poker at its finest.

You are basically doing the exact opposite of me.

()Cold call only when youre the 3rd+ person to enter the pot. Raise or fold poker. 66 from MP against a UTG raiser is a fold far more often than its a call. Implieds aren't there. The threat of a late position reraise IS there.

()Cbet more. My cbet % has shot through the roof. It borders on 90% I think. Villains will miss the flop insanely often.

() Dont limp, even along with other limpers. Put in a manly sized raise and take the dead money!

() RAISE MORE OFTEN PREFLOP
() Steal more [/b]

Originally Posted by euphoricism

You are basically doing the exact opposite of me.

i wonder if we agree...philosophically on how a short stack should be played, or i am way off, as usual.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

()Cold call only when youre the 3rd+ person to enter the pot. Raise or fold poker. 66 from MP against a UTG raiser is a fold far more often than its a call. Implieds aren't there. The threat of a late position reraise IS there.

not yet...in my games. i am playing a bit lower than you at the moment. 10, and 25. some would say to never buy in short at 10 (hell, i am one of them), but its not a bad "testing" ground for BI sizes and bet sizing.

and, how can the implieds not be there if the early raiser bumps is to $4 and i have $60? i hit my set, i practically stack off everytime with a flop bet, or check/bomb to a cbettor and a turn push.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

()Cbet more. My cbet % has shot through the roof. It borders on 90% I think. Villains will miss the flop insanely often.

i can see that, and just top up if you get challenged, but...

at my level, we get called too much to do a lot of cbetting with a short stack, imo.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

() Dont limp, even along with other limpers. Put in a manly sized raise and take the dead money!

() RAISE MORE OFTEN PREFLOP
() Steal more [/b]

this just seems a bit backwards to what i've read so far, and the way i think about shorting. i dont dispute your results, i just wonder about stealing with a short stack?

to me, from what i read, its "wait for a flop, and stick it in" with a bit of balancing on bigger draws and a little cbetting to keep others guessing a bit.

you are making it sound like "raise and bet like a monkey, its only 50 bb's."

i would love to discuss this further, as i go along. you have done this longer, and have adjusted along the way. i would also like to see if Fnord jumps back in a bit, too.

Well, in fairness it depends on your stack size. I have moved to 40bb'ng because thats the default buyin on Absolute and it seems to work amazingly.

But yeah, generally, my strat is to raise and bet like a monkey. A tight monkey with a nutcamping image. Kind of like Sauces strategy, but bought in short.

Youre rarely more than 70% dog, so your mistakes are never huge. 70% of 40bb is 21bb, leaving you with 19bb left even when you fuck up. Its hard to go too wrong, and you won't be wrong often.

Second, the common advice (advice I myself gave in several videos) when playing against shortstacks is "tighten up and just wait for a hand because theyll stack off light, and they can just shove over you when in position so screwing around with them is -EV."

So exploit the hell out of that. Threebet and steal liberally.

I run 10/10 UTG and 23/21 OTB. Note the closeness of those PFRs. If I'm playing, I'm practically always raising. Even with a hand like 66 OTB. Threebet because they'll fold pre a huge amount (probably folding stuff like AJs, 99, KQs, etc) and even when they call they miss the flop a huge amount and I take it down with a Cbet because they have no folding equity.

I dont know. Its really simple, but its really board dependent. Think about what villain has and think what villain thinks you have and you'll go far.

FWIW, I tried the "wait for a flop and get it in" method and I broke even over several thousand hands. Which isnt necessarily bad. I know Halvsame did the same.

I believe it is just a product of the fact that you just miss too many flops, and when you finally hit a flop, your opponents probably haven't, so you don't get shit for it.

So my next goal was to, and this is what I think was the missing piece, take it when villain doesnt want it or doesnt care to contest it. It happens frequently.

Being short makes it difficult for others to take it away as well. Hence you should still have a healthy bluff frequency.

ok, i am starting to see where the differences are in "style." maybe my way wont work up higher, when some players start to notice that button in the corner that says, "fold," on it.

i do notice players are either afraid of the short stack who is obviously trying to get it in, or they completely ignore him because there is another deeper stack in the hand, as well. hence, our HUGE advantage, imo, in multiway pots.

when increasing our "bluffing frequencies," do you guys blast it with air, on safe boards? or, do you make sure you have outs?

and, do you worry about balancing out anything? i'm not sure if i am asking that one correctly. my thought is that, eventually, i will stop getting action if i dont show some shit once in awhile. and, its hard to show shit when everyone is folding...so, obv, i am opening up and "trying to get caught." but, should i be at all concerned with polarization, or should i be blasting away more indiscriminately?

by the way, here is a hand that i thought had great showdown value. hopefully, it sends the message, "i aint only playing deez nuts, so you need to call me more often."

it just worked out that i hit my draw. besides, villain was raising rather wide, so i felt i was ahead of some crap i had seen, even though i dont being easily dominated when 3betting.

its really a standard cbet to a 3bet that gave off a slight scare card on the turn with a shitton of outs that i felt worthy of a push (apparently the poker gods thought so, too)...

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Absolute-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($19.17)
MP2 ($7.30)
Hero ($5.35)
Button ($12.90)
SB ($20.10)
BB ($9.85)
UTG ($2.35)
UTG+1 ($4.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 3 folds, MP1 calls $0.70.

Flop: ($2.15) , , (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $1.2, MP1 calls $1.20.

Turn: ($4.55) (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $3.15 (All-In), MP1 calls $3.15.

River: ($0) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $10.85

Full ring is a different beast. Villain is going to have a better hand here than he would at 6max.

If this were 6max, i'd raise more pre, bet more on the flop. Check through the turn, and the river plays itself.

Full ring is different, I dont really know what to tell you. Villains play significantly tighter, therefore they have significantly better hands when they open the pots. This is bad for us.

here is an update on the first 7 days. not a lot of hands, but i think we are off to a decent start. i CAN tell you i feel much better about where i stand in pots, and whether i am ahead/behind.

With a BR of 1.9k and the prospect of playing 50NL yet again giving me indigestion, I tried out halfstacking 100NL.

Discoveries:

- It's perfect for when you're in bankroll limbo

- Only about 40% of the fish had more than 60BBs

- Having eliminated tough spots during hands, a huge tough spot was whether or not to leave when I had 130BBs, a 90/14 the other side of the table, and a very dangerous reg to my left. I opted to leave as I discovered that the 90/14's postflop tendencies weren't as insane as his preflop stats.

- You don't have to stretch to put your stack in

- Even if they thought I was FoS, there wasn't much they could do about it

- The majority of regs suck ass regardless of their opponent's stack

- It's really really good fun

Thanks Fnord.

I've been generating a good bit of $ 8 tabling with 40BB's for the Last week or so. It make multitabling soooo easy

just got off a session...longest of the week. i got it in 4 times while way ahead...lost all four. got in in behind once...won that one. i get c/r'd off hands. i havent seen a set. i hit TP, they hit 2 pair, and i cant catch my paired board.

i know, i know. its variance. sort of. but, i am honestly sick and tired of it. i used to murder the micro stakes...and now cant even break even over decent stretches. lost another 21 at 10nl tonight. i run 16/12 right now, and have an af over 3. i am not all of a sudden a crappy player, at this level.

sorry to turn this into a whine, but i am so sick of the frustration that i need a long break from the tables.

however, i still want to work some of this mathematical stuff out. so, please keep posting and answering the questions. i have been getting a ton out of this.

Chopper, take a couple days off, your posts are taking on a more negative gone, sounds like you might not be thinking quite straight.

8 tabling for the last 6 days...
0-3k hands was $50NL when I first started 8 tabling.
3k-5k was $50NL
5k-8.5k was 100NL
8.5k+ was 200 NL

The last 1500 hands was my first shot @ $200 NL. I just couldn't get in good at all, I ran into KK 6x when I had QQ/AK, Chopped with AA 2x, and none of my opponents could miss a draw. I even managed to tilt off 2 stacks being stupid against the rocks.

One interesting thing to note is the last 100-200 hands.
The table tags were playing back pretty hard at me post flop, I just couldn't get in ahead so I reloaded to full stacks. The multi tablers didn't even notice and stacked off way light for having full stacks. They called AI against me with AQo and 66. Just an observation.

If i look on the sessions tab in PT, my standard deviation is 45BB's, I'm +/1 3BI alot, quite often 4 and occasionally 8+.

I don't think i swing as hard as eupho.

These are all my 200NL hands starting in february.

Hands 9-15k were a fun 10 stack dip, but I seem to have recovered. If you draw a line between hand 0 and the last hand on the chart its a pretty steady positive line

I run around 3.5/100.

wow impressive eupho

its all about tptk and getting it in against a deep stack with an ego trying to bust u because ur getting on their tits. i enjoy i bit of table banter when half stacking to really drive the chips over.
as soon as u show down a marginal hand all the regs tighten up. and the fish loosen...SICK. just watch out for the preflop deep stack limp from the guy u just whacked for 50bb its always aces or kings or a pp set mining hoping ull do ur usualy tptk reraise all in move to a flop stab.
if the tight players leave because ur tampering with their deep stack strat and let in more fish all the better. then ur playing with other peoples money full stacked and u can go back to being a laag spot picker and stack some more. WITH OTHER PEOPLES MONEY...oh the joy.

how many shortstackers are very successful in the long run? i don't think there are many..and if there are, then it's so little..

wufwugy..who's butt is that? i believe i have to jack off because of you..

moved to 400nl and ran like butt, dropped 1k and dropped back down. Then at 200nl I ran like butt too, dropped 1k and now my BR forced me to drop back down.

So I'm back at 100 again.

*cry*

Atleast I just ordered the 650 bonus. Looks like itll be about a week to clear.

don´t know if i better post in some beginner forum, but what´s your point of view on this:

i raise (NL25SH) UTG with AKo - get reraised from MP (unknown) and have 1 coldcaller in the BB. just shove the rest of your 40-50BB stack and gamble?

never fold AK preflop for less than about 80bb.

[ ] true

yeah yeah. It serves its purpose here, stfu.

Theres a 30 stack swing. 50 stacks is a MINIMUM bankroll requirement.

*cry*

any more thoughts on this?

im gonna try it out. running worse than garbage so i am amazingly frustrated, and feel like i wanna find a different way to play. this approach is probably lower variance too which is awesome. also i really like the idea of playing the game in a more unusual way compared to convention. for example: if you could figure out a very solid and thorough l/rr strat it would probably clean up since no opponents understand it that deeply.

anyways a couple issues i have: i recall fnord saying that we probably overestimate our edge when we get it in for 100bb, but looking over my pt it seems thats where my biggest edge is; im unsure as to how to approach 3betting, kinda seems like we shouldn't really 3bet at all at least in when hu, and im unsure about a number of marginal pair hands, like opening JT on btn and hitting tp on a semi-drawy board vs a decent blind. is tp the nuts or what?

also, what kind of vpip/pfr do you like?

Originally Posted by Fnord

For what it's worth, I like being short when rock crushing. My basic strategy against them is to win lots of small pots, contest some medium ones and avoid playing big pots (without looking like I'm avoiding big pots.) However, sometimes big pots happen. I'd rather take the over-all worst of it in a smaller pot and show that I'm willing to commit my stack to protect my ability to keep taking down pots while they wait for a hand to stack me.

i am unsure of what you mean due to ambiguity.

lol

Dealt to wufwugy [9s 9h]
Kinghete: folds
luminouche: folds
Hawksley: folds
wufwugy: raises $3 to $4
Ace_Rat_Ace: folds
JRAC07: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [2d Qs Qc]
JRAC07: bets $8
wufwugy: raises $12 to $20
JRAC07: calls $12
*** TURN *** [2d Qs Qc] [Tc]
JRAC07: checks
wufwugy: bets $22.50 and is all-in
JRAC07: folds

2x/22-88 IMHO. Maybe an Ax.

not sure where to post this but I hope someone can help me with this hand.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($9.15)
Button ($7.45)
SB ($39.95)
BB ($8.50)
Hero ($12.50)
UTG+1 ($24.30)
MP1 ($24.25)
MP2 ($17.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K.
Hero raises to $0.75, UTG+1 calls $0.75, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.75, 4 folds.

Flop: ($2.60) 5, A, J (3 players)
Hero bets $2.5, UTG+1 calls $2.50, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($7.60) 2 (2 players)
Hero ????

I hate the 3rd spade. I'm not sure whether to shove, check raise, or check fold to a big bet.

Edit: If I had bought in with 40bb's instead that would make this an easy shove?

all in obv

but the spade got there! should we just ask him to chop the pot?

I understand that some folks aren't a big fan of people playing short stack. Over at 2+2 they think that it kills the game. But, this is interesting to me due to recent vids on cardrunners about multi-tabling and I think that short stacking would be perfect for that since your decisions are easier. Although, I'm not sure how some of them are 24 tabling 6 max as a short stack.

However, I would be interested in knowing ranges for each position for either full ring or 6 max. I am familiar with the Getting Started in Hold'Em short stack strat. The profitable short stackers are adding more hands to this nitty hand range. What type of changes are these players making for full ring and 6 max?

MyTurn2Raise over at 2+2 says that he plays a 40bb stack and 24 tables 6 max tables. He also talks about using tournament concepts and shoves on players knowing that his hand range plays well equity wise against lp stealing ranges.

I would be interested in getting a discussion started (or restarted since this has been talked about a little bit previously) about playing effectively as a short stack and what changes we are making to the GSHE short stack strategy.

Although, this might be a waste of time, so be blunt if it is.

Lots of people 24 table full ring with 100BBs too, shortstacking is not the answer!

I'm curious about 1/2 stacking and Renton, You suggested alot of pro's for 1/2stacking. I was just wondering if thats changed at all.

Also, It seems that the primary "con" for 1/2 stacking is that you are loosing potential value. My question is, why can't we reload for 100bb's if we should stumble upon a highly exploitable full stack? Why are we limited to our 1/2 BI if a 100bb+ deep station/maniac/etc should sit to our right?

Just a few questions I had.