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The Half-Stack Approach to NLHE

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  1. #1

    Default The Half-Stack Approach to NLHE

    General Aproach:
    Buy-in for 50bb
    Re-load when you drop below 40bb
    At 75bb re-evaluate table conditions. If you don't like your seat or table, nit it up until your blinds hit, then leave.
    Tend to leave if you drop 100bb at a table.

    Advantages to a less than 100bb stack:
    It's easier to set-up favorable stack-to-pot ratios
    It simplifies one pair decsions. You just pretty much go all-in unless you're pretty sure you're crushed.
    Pulling the trigger all-in is much more accessable. All-in is a weapon that I don't feel I use often enough 100bb+ deep unless the game is juiced.
    You often get read as a fish. Regulars bluff you less and tend to felt pretty good hands instead of making well thought-out laydowns. Consider all the -EV shit people do for a table image like that. All I had to do was buy-in for less than max!
    It changes up the decisions, hence full-buy in robots will be more likely to make errors against you.
    Set-mining is less effective against you.
    More options to play a monster to get all the money in since you don't need to get in a full 3 or 4 big bets.

    "The way you win at chicken is to throw the steering wheel out the window in full view of your opponent" - David Skylansky

    Drawbacks to playing less than 100bb:
    Can't get as much value from strong second best hands or calling stations. (most calling stations have less than 100bb anyway.)
    Often don't get to the river with or against a draw in a raised pot.
    Can't trap someone for their stack when they flip the spew bit (although it's hard to make a hand strong enough to do this anyway.)

    Although I don't like 20bb deep because I feel it takes the play out of some of my best streets. Too much pressure on making a hand and the rake doesn't cap out on as many hands.

    Adjusting to play 40-60bb deep:
    Big cards go up in value.
    Good one pair hands tend to get felted. Try to get the money in by the turn.
    Hence, draws lose value against a "made" hand because they often can't bet the river for value.
    Strong draws can commit on the flop.
    Suited trash goes down in value. Don't even bother without initiative + position.
    Reads on your opponent lose value over strong play.
    Can't float around hoping for a chance to win as much.

    If you find yourself playing cards more than getting great reads. Playing infrequently enough that you don't know the regulars in your player pool. Totally lost in difficult one pair spots on the river. Going for a quanitity over quality approach to poker profits. Then I think this approach is very +++EV for you.
  2. #2
    I think you can still get away with SCs and draws, you just have to 3Bet the SCs for CBet credibility and push the draws. Same with small PP, 3Bet followed by shoving the flop.

    It's terribly binary, but it may be fun.
  3. #3
    But is it poker?
  4. #4
    Miffed22001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBL0SVN
    But is it poker?
    its a case of 'do you want to be the best or make the most money'

    being the best involves knowing all approaches id assume
  5. #5
    If you can see people's souls, then by all means, try to cover as much of the table as possible.
  6. #6
    Miffed22001's Avatar
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    do we get a results thread, or are you past PT?
  7. #7
    How bout some hand examples with low-mid pp's, mid sc's, AK/AQ?
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  8. #8
    Very interesting post Fnord. I used to do that in the past with lots of success ... only DBL0SVN's question is in place.

    Personally I think it's all about your goals. Making money the 'half-stack'-way is legitimate option. BUT if you want to learn and improve and move up and learn and improve and move up, then ...
  9. #9
    so when can we expect fnord's half-stack video?
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  10. #10
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheetah
    BUT if you want to learn and improve and move up and learn and improve and move up, then ...
    Improve to what? If your goal is to play nosebleed stakes, then the learning HU deep stacked NLHE is key.

    For what it's worth, I think the deep as possible mentality is as much about chest thumping as anything else.
  12. #12
    side benefit of playing one level higher, more RB/bonus if you're still a small-stakes player.

    I'd rather buy in 50bb deep at 100nl that 100bb deep at 50nl if I was whoring up the bonuses/rb
  13. #13
    For those looking for results. Try it for a day and see what you think it does for the spots you get into. We all play poker a little differently and what works for me might not work for you.

    A lot of the regulars would do a lot better with this approach.
  14. #14
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    After reading Ed Miller's book on NLHE, I like and use this approach, and unless the table has at least two deep unknowns or known bad players, I have had good results buying in for 60bbs. The typical table for me at 100NL is 1-2 sethunters 100bbs deep, 1-2 good players 100bbs deep, and the rest short, mostly bad players. 60bbs is enough to cover the bad players, and if I happen to run into the deep stacks, I immediately save 40bbs.
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  15. #15
    So do we get to see any HH's?
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  16. #16
    I will sometimes buy in with 50bb, for example when all the full stacks are strong regulars with one horrible fish at the table.
    It makes hands like this one much easier to play OOP.
    http://www.pokerhand.nu/hand/13423

    At my regular stakes I feel that I would be giving up value most of the time not playing with a full stack though. There is nothing fundamentally weak about the 50bb approach if you make the right adjustments to your game.
  17. #17
    Here's an interesting perspective on playing against shorties

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ht=short+stack
  18. #18
    euphoricism's Avatar
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    TY for (finally ;p) getting this thread made.

    I like half stacking. I always have. Recently I've been playing 20bb deep and while it's been quite profitable, I feel like I'm under utilizing my knowledge of the game.

    I'm not a deep stacked no-limit hold'em expert. I probably never will be. I am not good at a game of chicken, and I can't see into people's souls. By properly tailoring my stack size, I can largely negate that negative aspect of my game and accentuate the positive aspects. This is why short stacking works for me.
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  19. #19
    What adjustments do you make in your preflop raising and 3-betting range?
  20. #20
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    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Renton555 [Kh Kd]
    pvl000: folds
    ryanmack91: folds
    tdiddy: folds
    BeatPurdue: folds
    futilewar: folds
    Renton555: raises $5 to $7
    PretenderTUW: folds
    =LT UNITED=: calls $5
    *** FLOP *** [9c 7c Qs]
    =LT UNITED=: checks
    Renton555: bets $12
    =LT UNITED=: raises $12 to $24
    Renton555: raises $72 to $96 and is all-in
    =LT UNITED=: calls $67 and is all-in
    *** TURN *** [9c 7c Qs] [Ad]
    *** RIVER *** [9c 7c Qs Ad] [Kc]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    =LT UNITED=: shows [Qh Td] (a pair of Queens)
    Renton555: shows [Kh Kd] (three of a kind, Kings)
    Renton555 collected $194 from pot




    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Renton555 [Jc 9d]
    dynoalot: folds
    slammedfire: folds
    eurostore: folds
    Filthy999: folds
    Dilith: folds
    Renton555: raises $5 to $7
    thestreak: calls $6
    Mr.smith12: folds
    *** FLOP *** [2c 9s 3s]
    thestreak: checks
    Renton555: bets $10
    thestreak: calls $10
    *** TURN *** [2c 9s 3s] [Qh]
    thestreak: checks
    Renton555: bets $26
    thestreak: raises $110 to $136
    Renton555: calls $65.10 and is all-in
    *** RIVER *** [2c 9s 3s Qh] [6d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    thestreak: shows [Qs 2s] (two pair, Queens and Deuces)
    Renton555: mucks hand
    thestreak collected $215.20 from pot



    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Renton555 [Kd Ks]
    mtg38skopok2 joins the table at seat #7
    RikaKazak: folds
    golden31: folds
    slammedfire: folds
    SetzerMason: folds
    illu1212: folds
    Dilith: folds
    Renton555: raises $6 to $8
    thestreak: calls $6
    *** FLOP *** [2c 8s 3c]
    Renton555: bets $12
    thestreak: raises $12 to $24
    Renton555: raises $66 to $90 and is all-in
    thestreak: calls $66
    *** TURN *** [2c 8s 3c] [7s]
    *** RIVER *** [2c 8s 3c 7s] [8c]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Renton555: shows [Kd Ks] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
    thestreak: shows [9c 8d] (three of a kind, Eights)
    thestreak collected $193 from pot


    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Renton555 [Td Ks]
    luckyplayzz: folds
    Cryys: folds
    EMPshockwave: folds
    jmoney10587: raises $6 to $8
    th9nip: folds
    BooneTop: folds
    cancan2: folds
    Renton555: raises $14 to $22
    jmoney10587: folds
    Renton555 collected $17 from pot
    Renton555: doesn't show hand




    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Renton555 [7s 9s]
    golden31: folds
    Oldmistyman: calls $2
    2high3kicker: calls $2
    aragon: folds
    Renton555: raises $9 to $11
    Dilith: folds
    juvenia: folds
    slammedfire: folds
    SetzerMason: folds
    Oldmistyman: folds
    2high3kicker: folds
    Renton555 collected $9 from pot
    Renton555: doesn't show hand
  21. #21
    Renton, after taking this approach for a spin:

    How often did you find yourself wanting more money behind?
    How often where you glad not to have more money behind?
    Did you notice any changes in how people played against you?
  22. #22
    Chopper's Avatar
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    heres a pickle.

    i play this way fairly effectively at stars and full tilt. but, lately have switched over to AP. the min rebuy sucks, so its hard to "top off." so, i stopped shorting and went back to 100-200 bb BI's. i have found a lot of loose passives over there, and i think even if i could "top off" smaller, i would be leaving a ton of value on the table.

    what table conditions do you look for, other than already mentioned, that will convince you that buying in full is the way to go? deep call stations? overly aggressive villains? etc?

    imo, this strategy works well for defensive play as well as offensive. if a table is extremely aggressive and puts constant pressure on the nits, shorting is a good way to get even with them, imo.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  23. #23
    For what it's worth, I like being short when rock crushing. My basic strategy against them is to win lots of small pots, contest some medium ones and avoid playing big pots (without looking like I'm avoiding big pots.) However, sometimes big pots happen. I'd rather take the over-all worst of it in a smaller pot and show that I'm willing to commit my stack to protect my ability to keep taking down pots while they wait for a hand to stack me.
  24. #24
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    does that mean you "open up" in position against them by raising sc's, baby pairs, trap hands, gappers? basically, play a blind steal/cbet game against them? and if they play back, either fold or shove? but only bet with TP+ (it just looks like a cbet)?

    seems that goes against the strategy, but would be most effective in keeping continual pressure on rocks.

    lately, i've been avoiding tight tables like the plague, making it easy to play deep against spewtards. but, if i find them again by switching back to some much tougher competition, i may short again instead of worrying about "opening up" and trying to go LAG, which is very against my nitty nature.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    does that mean you "open up" in position against them by raising sc's, baby pairs, trap hands, gappers? basically, play a blind steal/cbet game against them? and if they play back, either fold or shove? but only bet with TP+ (it just looks like a cbet)?

    seems that goes against the strategy, but would be most effective in keeping continual pressure on rocks.

    lately, i've been avoiding tight tables like the plague, making it easy to play deep against spewtards. but, if i find them again by switching back to some much tougher competition, i may short again instead of worrying about "opening up" and trying to go LAG, which is very against my nitty nature.
    For some reason opening up your game with a smaller stack doesn't feel natural to me, but I would like to hear Fnord or Renton on it. Renton's VPIP is nitty, but his PFR% is relatively high I guess.
  26. #26
    How about this kind of situation with 50bb's...

    Hero raises 5x pre-flop with AsKs in middle position after 1 limper and gets 1 late position caller. It's HU to the flop. Flop comes something like 6h 8s 9s. Pot is about 12bb's. Hero cbets 10bb's and is called. Turn is 2d. Pot is about 32bb's, and Hero has 35bb's left. What is Hero's best play?
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  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    What is Hero's best play?
    I think that's a bad spot for a high c-bet frequency. That said, if I decide to run with it, I would probably stick the rest in on a blank.
  28. #28
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    i like the hand ranges opponents are playing against us in rentons HHs
  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    For what it's worth, I like being short when rock crushing. My basic strategy against them is to win lots of small pots, contest some medium ones and avoid playing big pots (without looking like I'm avoiding big pots.) However, sometimes big pots happen. I'd rather take the over-all worst of it in a smaller pot and show that I'm willing to commit my stack to protect my ability to keep taking down pots while they wait for a hand to stack me.
    Well awesome point, but i do think i'd rather have 250bb than 50bb.

    Idk about 150 or 200 rather than 50 though.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    How about this kind of situation with 50bb's...

    Hero raises 5x pre-flop with AsKs in middle position after 1 limper and gets 1 late position caller. It's HU to the flop. Flop comes something like 6h 8s 9s. Pot is about 12bb's. Hero cbets 10bb's and is called. Turn is 2d. Pot is about 32bb's, and Hero has 35bb's left. What is Hero's best play?
    in that pot, you dont cbet the flop...you cant afford to get called. it puts you in a crappy spot w/o position. check/fold flop.

    however, if this happens frequently in a session (missing flops), it makes it real easy to c/c and lead turn large when you connect, as you are almost committed.

    i know it sounds sac religious, but a whiffed AK oop invites disaster to short stacks.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    How about this kind of situation with 50bb's...

    Hero raises 5x pre-flop with AsKs in middle position after 1 limper and gets 1 late position caller. It's HU to the flop. Flop comes something like 6h 8s 9s. Pot is about 12bb's. Hero cbets 10bb's and is called. Turn is 2d. Pot is about 32bb's, and Hero has 35bb's left. What is Hero's best play?
    in that pot, you dont cbet the flop...you cant afford to get called. it puts you in a crappy spot w/o position. check/fold flop.

    however, if this happens frequently in a session (missing flops), it makes it real easy to c/c and lead turn large when you connect, as you are almost committed.

    i know it sounds sac religious, but a whiffed AK oop invites disaster to short stacks.
    You probs missed that we have a spade draw there..

    I'd say CRAI?
  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash256
    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    i know it sounds sac religious, but a whiffed AK oop invites disaster to short stacks.
    You probs missed that we have a spade draw there..

    I'd say CRAI?
    I assume you mean c/r the flop and not the turn right? C/R turn doesn't really accomplish much I don't think.
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  33. #33
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    yup, missed the flush draw. you gotta run with this one.

    hell, thats 15 outs, you try and get this in with much deeper stacks. cant believe i missed that.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    What is Hero's best play?
    I think that's a bad spot for a high c-bet frequency. That said, if I decide to run with it, I would probably stick the rest in on a blank.
    I like c/rai on the flop more, though I'd push if I played it like this.
  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash256
    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    i know it sounds sac religious, but a whiffed AK oop invites disaster to short stacks.
    You probs missed that we have a spade draw there..

    I'd say CRAI?
    I assume you mean c/r the flop and not the turn right? C/R turn doesn't really accomplish much I don't think.
    Yeah, flop.
  36. #36
    So I tried this for a bit last night... short stacking 100NL on PS... I ran poorly, and made some spewy plays for sure, losing 7 1/2-stack BIs in the process.

    Obviously one of the strengths of this strategy is getting looked up with lots of weaker hands... It's quite liberating, to c-bet AA on a HU flop, have the guy min-reraise.. and be able to push with impunity. Often getting called by tpg-type hands.

    Though getting sucked out on several times like this led me to some tilting and playing sub-optimal from time to time. I'm not used to getting a villain T6s getting AI on T87 rainbow flop... so that's something for which I need to be prepared in this strategy.

    I think some of my common spewy plays were
    - still trying to float to 1/2-2/3 PSB... without strong draws.
    - c-betting too often... 100NL opponents seem to call and c/r c-bets far more often than 50NL opponents. As with Martin's question, if c-beting the nut flush after a PFR isn't the common play.. what types of boards are we looking to continue on?... I think I need to tighten up my c-betting tendencies as I get looked up lightly more often.

    Quick question:
    If there is a raise by a 14/8 guy raises 4bb in MP, 16/6 CO calls.. what range do we raise (and call) on the button, what range do we raise/call from BB?

    The comment about avoiding suited trash means suited non-connectors?.. I would think to a raise and 1-2 calls we could raise/call with Axs, and most sc's IP. And often call from the blinds... is this not right?...

    God... i'm such a fucking donkey....
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  37. #37
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    Guess I need more lessons ;/
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  38. #38
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    i can see shorting at a NL table, but PL? euph, tell me that was a mistake? and, thats why only the 40 hands.

    and i think we all need to remember, variance is a total bitch while shorting. no way 1200 hands can be even looked at seriously. but, you knew that already i'm sure.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  39. #39
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    Yeah my all-in graph is below this post. There were a lot of spots I was glad I was 50bb deep rather than 100. It made my decisions easier with TPGK hands just like fnord said.

    KingNat:

    This strategy is about making the best hand as fast as possible while your opponents are still drawing. So playing drawing hands is obviously not the correct methodology. Flop hard, go all in, get paid.

    So high cards that make TPTK and overpairs are going to be your bread and butter, along with the 22-TTish type hands you play for set value (speaking from a full ring point of view). Suited connectors and the like are imo only suited toward stealing blinds and I guess calling along with other callers. Maybe a PFR and 2 cold callers and your 56s is playable.

    But most of the time with suited connectors youre NOT going to flop a made hand, youre going to flop a draw. And drawing is not the point.

    The main mistakes I made during that 1200 session:

    1) 3 or 4 stacks to bluffs. A few bluffs I attempted did indeed work, but overwhelmingly I don't think they're worth it. People call. We want them to call. We should not then expect them to fold. Thats idiocy.

    2) Too much drawing. If you have a draw worth drawing to (which would have to be a big draw, definitely >9 outs) then you should just shove and add on *some* folding equity.

    3) FR players don't really defend their blinds. When someone at the blinds suddenly plays back at you especially as a shorty, you need to have the goods. There is no room for a game of chicken.



    My allin chart for the last session:
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  40. #40
    snugglez88 Guest
    full stack is better... if you leave potential money out of play you are lowering the skill advantage.
  41. #41
    euphoricism's Avatar
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    *facepalm*
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by euphoricism
    *facepalm*
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  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by snugglez88
    full stack is better... if you leave potential money out of play you are lowering the skill advantage.
    oh
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  44. #44
    People that understand the theory behind shortstacking and have a good enough feel for hand ranges to do it well don't play shortstacked. Not many anyways. So many of these concepts are independent of stack sizes. What changes is how they're applied. Sitting with 40BBs isn't going to change much other than how much you can potentially win/lose if you aren't already able to beat a game playing with 100+BBs.

    At midstakes and below shortstacking is next to worthless. Good luck assigning hand ranges when so many of your opponents are playing erractically and often times just according to whim. Often times you're just minimizing the extent of the mistakes they make and giving them easier decisions.
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  45. #45
    I would think that erratic and unknown opponents is a reason to not play very deep. It's very hard to make a nut-like hand in hold'em and showing down a good hand is the best counter I know for dealing an opponent that I think is getting out of line.

    Maybe I'm just not as darn aggressive in big pots as some of the other posters here. Then again, I'm a pretty consistant winner with very poor all-in equity according to PokerEV.
  46. #46
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    dnuts you are oversimplifying the issue

    When you play 100bb, the implied threat of stacking people and getting stacked often keeps you from getting full value on your 1 pair hands, and also causes you to very often forfeit your equity in the pot to good players.

    The way I'm seeing it, you don't play 50bb to make your decisions easier, you play 50bb to make their decisions harder. I think its mostly about the increased amount of preflop and flop fold equity you get, but obviously the ability to stack off lighter helps matters too.
  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    The way I'm seeing it, you don't play 50bb to make your decisions easier, you play 50bb to make their decisions harder. I think its mostly about the increased amount of preflop and flop fold equity you get, but obviously the ability to stack off lighter helps matters too.
    i'm not going to try and 2nd guess you guys. but, the way i see shorting is not defense and not offense. it blends both. not only do your decisions become LESS complex. your opponent's decisions become, not more complex, but different. an opponent has to account for you being almost committed AND the deeper stack behind you still to act. if he tries to isolate you, will the deeper stack jump in with odds, too? when you're in the pot, it gives the deeper stacks "one more thing to worry about."

    shorting puts a ton of pressure on the deeper stacks when used appropriately. yes, you lose some value when you could have been paid off by a 120 bb stack. but, you also gain in what Renton just said by gaining max value from your TPTK hands. you will often be called by 2nd pairs (thinking you are on a draw) or TP (thinking you are on a bluff and trying to max your FE). its this balance (pressuring the big stacks) you must learn to exploit.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    When you play 100bb, the implied threat of stacking people and getting stacked often keeps you from getting full value on your 1 pair hands, and also causes you to very often forfeit your equity in the pot to good players.
    This is a really good point Renton.
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  49. #49
    When we raise AQ pf and get called by AK and an A comes on the flop are we pretty much always going broke or what?
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  50. #50
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    The shortstacking strategy's backbone relies entirely upon the thought/ notion that people will call you thinner than average, because you are short.

    You can buy in bigger and still get people to call you thinner. Therefore, the only thing I see you accomplish with this shorting strategy is permatilt when your nuts top pair gets cracked for the umpteenth time.


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  51. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    When we raise AQ pf and get called by AK and an A comes on the flop are we pretty much always going broke or what?
    It depends. We certainly don't hate going broke here. I think "going broke" is a bad way to think about NLHE. All-ins have to happen and if you're always getting it in with the best hand you're not going all-in often enough.
  52. #52
    Miffed22001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    When we raise AQ pf and get called by AK and an A comes on the flop are we pretty much always going broke or what?
    It depends. We certainly don't hate going broke here. I think "going broke" is a bad way to think about NLHE. All-ins have to happen and if you're always getting it in with the best hand you're not going all-in often enough.
    id have argued if we arent inducing a 3bet preflop from AK then we arent raising enough anyways...
    but ofc the stars games are quite passive in that way too
  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    When we raise AQ pf and get called by AK and an A comes on the flop are we pretty much always going broke or what?
    at the stakes WE play, martin, i cant see how we get away. laying AQ on a A high flop has to be -EV down here.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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  54. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    at the stakes WE play, martin, i cant see how we get away. laying AQ on a A high flop has to be -EV down here.
    I think this is certainly a foldable spot in any game. Don't give the table nit action without at least TPTK.
  55. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    at the stakes WE play, martin, i cant see how we get away. laying AQ on a A high flop has to be -EV down here.
    I think this is certainly a foldable spot in any game. Don't give the table nit action without at least the nuts.
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  56. #56
    euphoricism's Avatar
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    wait, TPTK isn't the nuts?
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by euphoricism
    wait, TPTK isn't the nuts?
    it is where i play
  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    The shortstacking strategy's backbone relies entirely upon the thought/notion that people will call you thinner than average, because you are short.
    I disagree. 20BB short stacking relies upon the fact that the deep stacks will open very wide against each other, and preflop fold equity works in favour of the short stack alot. I haven't played 50BB much but I'd think it's strength is that we aren't going to be put in tough spot alot. Since we're often gonna just look at the flop and decide to go with the hand, we discourage them from playing back .
  59. #59
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    50 bbs is a float/implied odds killer...thats the beauty. it also keeps you from making bad post flop bluffs/calls (when you suck at reads) on the turn and river because you are usually committed by then anyway.

    fnord, do you see it as an effective defense against "light 3bettors", too? i see it as a way for you to 3bet and set up an obvious flop shove, but also squelching a villain wanting to 3bet you because villain fears the obvious flop shove or c/r AI.
    LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

    Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
  60. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Chopper
    fnord, do you see it as an effective defense against "light 3bettors", too? i see it as a way for you to 3bet and set up an obvious flop shove, but also squelching a villain wanting to 3bet you because villain fears the obvious flop shove or c/r AI.
    It certainly makes it stupid easy to felt QQ/AK agaisnt an unknown who looks kinda nitty. In wider range spots, going further down the food chain doesn't hurt as much. The Axs shove certainly is in my playbook as well.
  61. #61
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    I would rather play against a short stack than a deep stack, and I'm sure I've had more success against them as well. Most shorties do not buy in for full because of a short stacking strategy they are trying to perfect, but rather because they don't want to loose 100bb in one hand.

    To reiterate what chopper touched on. Shorties miss out on implied odds preflop. Isn't the name of the game to: flop set / get paid ? What about sc's followed by a raised pot preflop with a bunch of callers? These are huge pots that shorties are missing out on. Also, floating is lost. Floating in my opinion is the prettiest play in nlhe when it works and can be very profitable if chosen at the right time.

    My bottom line is: Deep stacks = difficult decisions = more mistakes = more $ to be had
  62. #62
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    I tend to agree with your bottom line, Drew. Consider this though:

    Position is important to the point that beating good players OOP is difficult at best, damn near impossible at worst. Hence the old "money tends to flow clockwise around the table". Because of this we tend to position ourselves to the immediate left of the table fish (usually I don't sit at all if I can't have the first or second seat to the fish's left, but that might be a privilege (sp?) that US players don't have anymore). Now, this usually means that on our left we'll have a decent/good reg (if he's super tough I tend to not sit). With 100BB's the reg will put us in lots of difficult spots, since we are trying to play as much vs the fish as possible. Because of this I'd argue that buying in just enough to cover the fish will be better than autobuying 100BBs. I still think that if the fish buys in full we should too, but even then 50BBs might be as good or better.

    Now, if we get the seat two to the left of the 50BB fish and the 100BB reg is in between, buying in for 100BBs is probably better because we will be the ones applying pressure when he's trying to isolate the fish and what not.

    A point that can be made against buying in <max is that full stacks means you have to improve your postflop play to survive. Just like "many vs few tables" and "easy vs tough sites" it's a matter of comparing the relatively short term gain and the potential long term gain from becoming an expert deep stack player.
  63. #63
    Well I tried this for a bit the last couple days at FTP. Things I noticed:

    1) Decisions are 100x easier.
    2) I am finding out how often people are just screwing around when my flop cbets get raised.
    3) I got action from 100bb players' hands that most certainly would not give action if I had a full stack myself.
    4) I never really kicked myself for not having a full stack since so many bad players are playing with around 50bb's or less already.
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  64. #64
    euphoricism's Avatar
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    #2 is so huge.
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  65. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by euphoricism
    #2 is so huge.
    for real man. it's crazy what people are testing me with. and then when i go ahead and pull the trigger with an actual hand i still get called by like middle pair no kicker cuz there just like "ah frick oh well it's just another 20bb's to try and bust him!"

    with a full stack i missed out on value a bunch cuz i didn't want to play a big pot without a really big hand.
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  66. #66
    I agree that it is wise to buy in for 50bbs as a successful deep stack player taking a shot at a higher stake, as well as certain scenarios like Bill mentioned. Other than that, it boils down to how big of an edge you have. If you're the table fish then you wanna buy in for min, if you're the table shark you want max, and if you're somewhere in between you may want to buy in somewhere between.

    I think the idea in this thread that opponents pay off substantially lighter to mid stacks is an illusion. A lot of these hands are good for around 50bbs, but not for a 100. It is, however, safer to play shorter, but that is at the expense of more money when you are one of the good players at the table. I'm sure it's already standard knowledge that the shorter the stacks, the lower the potential winrates.

    Besides, I recall Fnord saying about a year ago that he always buys in full since he always eventually gets deep anyways. Now he's indirectly suggesting to rathole it seems. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm not one of those morans who hates shorties and hit n runners.
  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    , if you're the table shark you want max, and if you're somewhere in between you may want to buy in somewhere between.
    I think you've missed the point.
  68. #68
    Windforce Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    , if you're the table shark you want max, and if you're somewhere in between you may want to buy in somewhere between.
    I think you've missed the point.
    yeah he missed it
  69. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    I think the idea in this thread that opponents pay off substantially lighter to mid stacks is an illusion.
    This is definitely not an illusion. There's no way a full stack would normally get all-in for 100bb's on the flop with TP no kicker or even middle pair but there are a bunch who will gladly get 50bb's in the middle. You should probably just try it out yourself to find out.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    I'm sure it's already standard knowledge that the shorter the stacks, the lower the potential winrates.
    I don't agree with this.

    EDIT: Yes, the potential winrate is higher with a higher stack but in reality the average player's 50bb winrate vs. their 100bb winrate shouldn't differ too much imo (Their 50bb winrate might actually be higher if they make a lot fewer mistakes half-stacked). If that player is way above average and is a great hand reader then their winrate would likely differ noticeably. Like stated earlier if you can read souls then play as deep as you possibly can.

    And also like stated before it's all about your goals. If you want to become an expert deep stack player and be the greatest player around and pwn everyone then half-stacking isn't for you. If you don't play as well deep stacked as you do half-stacked and you just want to make the most money possible at your current skill level then play half-stacked.
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  70. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    , if you're the table shark you want max, and if you're somewhere in between you may want to buy in somewhere between.
    I think you've missed the point.
    Obviously, I don't think so. Go ahead and explain.
  71. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    This is definitely not an illusion. There's no way a full stack would normally get all-in for 100bb's on the flop with TP no kicker or even middle pair but there are a bunch who will gladly get 50bb's in the middle. You should probably just try it out yourself to find out.
    You're right. You're also comparing apples and oranges. I will often get about 35-40bb in on the flop with tpgk when 100bb deep (not tpnk because I don't play those hands). I've gotten about 70bb in with tpgk a number of times by any given street. Even 100bb, but not as often that. Midstackers vs midstackers need twice as many stacks to achieve the rate of fullstackers vs fullstackers rates.

    As a midstack you're adding a little in edge with scenarios like that yet taking away a lot in edge with large bets and plays on latter streets.

    I don't agree with this.
    Then you're going against allllll anecdotal evidence and what I presume to be theoretical understanding. World's best 20bb player vs a bunch of donkey 20bb players, or world's best 200bb player vs a bunch of donkey 200bb players? The latter player is making soooooooooo much more.

    Playing a midstack well is great, but focusing on it is not the key way to optimize winrate over the long term of skill development. Nor is it the best way to optimize winrate when you have the biggest edge at the table. However, optimizing winrate is not the focal point of the OP, but it is a point that comes out of discussion.
  72. #72
    Renton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    , if you're the table shark you want max, and if you're somewhere in between you may want to buy in somewhere between.
    I think you've missed the point.
    Obviously, I don't think so. Go ahead and explain.
    Well the thesis seems to be that 100bb is an unoptimal stack size. This has nothing to do with a skill edge or whatever. Fnord is obvious a very very good poker player, yet he's advocating this style. Do you think that he feels like he's being outplayed with 100bb stacks?
  73. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    I don't agree with this.
    Then you're going against allllll anecdotal evidence and what I presume to be theoretical understanding. World's best 20bb player vs a bunch of donkey 20bb players, or world's best 200bb player vs a bunch of donkey 200bb players? The latter player is making soooooooooo much more.

    Playing a midstack well is great, but focusing on it is not the key way to optimize winrate over the long term of skill development. Nor is it the best way to optimize winrate when you have the biggest edge at the table. However, optimizing winrate is not the focal point of the OP, but it is a point that comes out of discussion.
    did you read my edit?
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  74. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by martindcx1e
    did you read my edit?
    I did not. Thanks.
  75. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    , if you're the table shark you want max, and if you're somewhere in between you may want to buy in somewhere between.
    I think you've missed the point.
    Obviously, I don't think so. Go ahead and explain.
    Well the thesis seems to be that 100bb is an unoptimal stack size. This has nothing to do with a skill edge or whatever. Fnord is obvious a very very good poker player, yet he's advocating this style. Do you think that he feels like he's being outplayed with 100bb stacks?
    I doubt Fnord's getting out played since he REFUSES TO PLAY ME HU5ROLLZ

    I don't get that at all from his thesis. I get that it is for some at some points in time, however. He loves poker and loves theory. He's theorizing about another way to play that he values. My responses cater to optimization since I care about optimization more so.

    If you're referring to 100bb being structurally non-optimal then I disagree since I don't think that can actually be determined.

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