Hand vs M3lancholy (WTF am I doing?)

Okay, so I see M3lancholy (a fellow FTR'er) sit at two of my tables, and immediately he starts playing VERY laggy. Raising and reraising, limping in and stealing pots on the flop when checked to him, etc.

Here's an earlier hand for reference. Effective stacks $210, 9-handed. I pick up K Q in the CO and open for $8. Button calls, m3lancholy calls in BB. Flop is K - J - 6 . Checks to me, I bet $16, button folds, m3lancholy calls. At this point I really don't think he has much, and think there's a good possibility he's floating. Turn is a 7 . Check, check. River is A giving me the nuts. He bets $20, I raise to $75, he pauses for a long time, then shoves with Q T and I scoop the pot.

So I think he knows I've been playing a tight/solid game, but he may view me as somewhat weak-tight, and on both of our tables I have shown down nothing but the goods. Then this hand comes up. Effective stacks $250. I am dealt A 6 in the BB. M3lancholy limps in MP, SB completes, and I check. Flop is Q - 4 - 9 . I lead for $6, and m3lancholy raises to $20. His range here is VERY wide. I call. Turn is T . I check, m3lancholy bets $30 into a $43 pot. I CR to $90.... Chip spew?

Oh yeah, and if you're reading this m3lancholy, I'd be very interested to hear your side of it.

Looks like a nice play given the last hand unless m3lancholy is out for revenge and is willing to pay to show down one pair.

Hand 2: hmmmm....

How often does he open-limp?
$45ish in the pot, bet is $30, so a call would be $30 into a $105 pot.
We would need to get $50+ paid off on the river to call on the flush alone. This is why the flop call kinda commits us to only 1 more card against anyone that doesn't suck.

CRing the turn against this guy kinda sucks. If you're going to make a move, re-raise to $60 on the flop and open-push any turn.

I like the $90 raise here. I think he's marginal enough to lay down with the board coordinating up, and your earlier showdown porking him. To me it's a perfect spot. You have a lot of fold equity against a loose range that was shown a winner not too long ago. You have 9-12 outs if he decides to hang around. GENIUS.

The think that stood out to me is that TJ is unlikely in the hands of the villain, yet it adds to your fold equity on the turn. I find that unlikely hands by themselves usually won't deter the villain away, but add the possiblility in with a mixed ??? range and it can spell the fold clincher. The problem with lagging if I'm the villain, is that it's harder to trust my own reads on the hero. Since as the laggy villain you're stimulating the action playing a loose range, in certain spots the laggy villain can allow an overabundance of fold equity to get the best of him. He begins having "Wait for a better day" thoughts.

How often do you think he folds to that line? Also, getting re-raised turns our hand into 72o...

Originally Posted by Fnord

How often do you think he folds to that line?

This depends largely on the relationship between the villain and hero. If hero hasn't used up his credit, then you find a fold here often aside from villain being loaded. Hero has to know the dynamic changes henceforth, and should take full advantage of that fact by overbetting something strong in the future intentionally.

Opponent is playing like he's tilting and has recently lost a big pot, yet he's certainly not going defensive. I think he's primed to do something really stupid, then leave the table. Meh.

Very possible. Something stupid that wins the pot and takes him off tilt. Is he a tilt fish or a recently cracked seasoned lagg though?

Wouldn't a LAGG bet higher than 3/4 pot if he had something worth showing down? He has one pair or he has a draw that didn't hit. He should be at least concerned enough about the flush potential (if he has a hand) to pot it or higher. I think it's wise to fold if m3lancholy 3bets though.

Originally Posted by Fnord

How often does he open-limp?

He open limps/limps quite frequently, especially from MP - Button.

Originally Posted by Fnord

CRing the turn against this guy kinda sucks. If you're going to make a move, re-raise to $60 on the flop and open-push any turn.

Great point Fnord. Looking back I really like this line.

Also, I'm not sure if he's tilting, since this hand ocurred maybe 1-2 orbits after the KQs hand.

Originally Posted by r8ed

Wouldn't a LAGG bet higher than 3/4 pot if he had something worth showing down?

Tough to say, he's a thinking player. Also, it's very common for winners in these games to value bet some good hands and really turn up the juice when they nail something or are bluffing. They get away with this because their opponents call too much and don't raise often enough.

First of all nice choice for a nick, random letters and numbers dont look like FTR when you are 6 tabling!
Of course I viewed you as weak tight, just started playing at Stars I have no real stats on noone.

First hand I put you on AJ/AK. I kinda ruled out AK when you checked the turn though and added "air" to the mix since afterall opened from the CO. I only bet 20 at the river (pot is 60) trying to induce a bluff if you had nothing and a good value raise from AJ. When you clearly value-raised to 75 KQs came in mind. After going in the tank I thought you would have bet the turn too if you had it (why the !@#$^ didnt you? just kidding) so I had to go with AJ and shove it in. Well played.

Second hand. You have the turn and river the other way around, doent make any diffirence though(I had KQ, called the turn raise. River was a Th and bdawg56kg bluffed his stack into me)

When you bet the flop then call the raise I put you on a flush or straght draw. I am expecting a check/call on the turn too (remember I think you are weak/tight). When you raise to 90 I put you on either AJd or JT. I call (the reason I did not push is kinda silly. I am used to having people covered and only look at their stack when in a hand (also my regural game is NL400 at another site, just building now at NL200 stars). You had $300+ after raising me to $90 on the turn so a push (I think I cover) will only get called if my read is wrong)
So I am expecting a safe river (not that many...) and maybe a $100-$150 bluff or a check and a ridiculously small value bet from me. The Th made it easy of course.

Oh and I dont tilt (at least it takes more than just losing a buy-in heh).

Both hands:

POKERSTARS GAME #4270661083: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/03/13 - 00:13:10 (ET)
Table 'Praxidike V' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: HOTTUB ($135.75 in chips)
Seat 2: slipperystar ($130.40 in chips)
Seat 3: Laden777 ($85.10 in chips)
Seat 4: bdawg56kg ($224 in chips)
Seat 5: Keemosabie05 ($166.65 in chips)
Seat 6: outhewindow ($201.45 in chips)
Seat 7: Mrpenquin1 ($117.85 in chips)
Seat 8: m3lancholy ($244.35 in chips)
Seat 9: obiwanjm ($141.60 in chips)
Mrpenquin1: posts small blind $1
m3lancholy: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to m3lancholy [Qh Th]
obiwanjm: folds
HOTTUB: calls $2
slipperystar: folds
Laden777: folds
bdawg56kg: raises $6 to $8
Keemosabie05: folds
outhewindow: calls $8
Mrpenquin1: folds
m3lancholy: calls $6
HOTTUB: folds
*** FLOP *** [Js Kd 4s]
m3lancholy: checks
bdawg56kg: bets $16
outhewindow: folds
m3lancholy: calls $16
*** TURN *** [Js Kd 4s] [7c]
m3lancholy: checks
bdawg56kg: checks
*** RIVER *** [Js Kd 4s 7c] [As]
m3lancholy: bets $20
bdawg56kg: raises $55 to $75
slipperystar is sitting out
slipperystar leaves the table
m3lancholy: raises $145.35 to $220.35 and is all-in
bdawg56kg: calls $125 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
m3lancholy: shows [Qh Th] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
bdawg56kg: shows [Qs Ks] (a flush, Ace high)
bdawg56kg collected $456 from pot

and

POKERSTARS GAME #4270933469: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/03/13 - 00:38:46 (ET)
Table 'Praxidike V' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: HeIIo, Jerry ($200 in chips)
Seat 2: 1niceflophuh ($45.35 in chips)
Seat 3: null ($196 in chips)
Seat 4: bdawg56kg ($446.35 in chips)
Seat 5: Keemosabie05 ($166.95 in chips)
Seat 6: outhewindow ($148.95 in chips)
Seat 7: Mrpenquin1 ($146.55 in chips)
Seat 8: m3lancholy ($281.85 in chips)
Seat 9: obiwanjm ($129.75 in chips)
null: posts small blind $1
bdawg56kg: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to m3lancholy [Kd Qh]
Keemosabie05: folds
outhewindow: folds
Mrpenquin1: folds
m3lancholy: calls $2
obiwanjm: folds
HeIIo, Jerry: folds
1niceflophuh: folds
null: calls $1
bdawg56kg: checks
*** FLOP *** [4d 9c Qd]
null: checks
bdawg56kg: bets $6
m3lancholy: raises $14 to $20
null: folds
bdawg56kg: calls $14
*** TURN *** [4d 9c Qd] [Jh]
bdawg56kg: checks
m3lancholy: bets $30
bdawg56kg: raises $60 to $90
m3lancholy: calls $60
*** RIVER *** [4d 9c Qd Jh] [Th]
bdawg56kg: bets $334.35 and is all-in
m3lancholy: calls $169.85 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bdawg56kg: shows [6d Ad] (high card Ace)
m3lancholy: shows [Kd Qh] (a straight, Nine to King)
m3lancholy collected $562.70 from pot

So owned.

Why aren't you opening for a raise pre-flop?
Why raise the flop? Are you looking to play a big pot with a pair and nothing in pre-flop?

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

When you bet the flop then call the raise I put you on a flush or straght draw. I am expecting a check/call on the turn too (remember I think you are weak/tight). When you raise to 90 I put you on either AJd or JT. I call (the reason I did not push is kinda silly.

He's comming out of the blinds, hence I think you're discounting stuff like trash 2 pair or a worse Qx too easily.

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

So I am expecting a safe river (not that many...) and maybe a $100-$150 bluff or a check and a ridiculously small value bet from me.

Why re-open the betting?

What's your plan if he re-raises the flop to $60? Follows through with a turn push?

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why aren't you opening for a raise pre-flop?

Maybe I had raised too much in a row, maybe misclick or I thought I was earlier position.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why raise the flop? Are you looking to play a big pot with a pair and nothing in pre-flop?

I want him to define his hand. I like raised pots much more. I prefer to take this one down right there.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

When you bet the flop then call the raise I put you on a flush or straght draw. I am expecting a check/call on the turn too (remember I think you are weak/tight). When you raise to 90 I put you on either AJd or JT. I call (the reason I did not push is kinda silly.

He's comming out of the blinds, hence I think you're discounting stuff like trash 2 pair or a worse Qx too easily.

Thats exactly why I want to get info about his hand. Trash 2 pair will probably 3 bet the flop to be done with the hand. Worse Q might check/call the turn and river (if I bet the river and depending on how bad the player is) . What hand would call then check and 2 x raise me when that Jack fell? Maybe QJ, maybe a set. It obviously read-based. When people bet then call a raise and check, I tend to think "draw" and it is usually the case.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

So I am expecting a safe river (not that many...) and maybe a $100-$150 bluff or a check and a ridiculously small value bet from me.

Why re-open the betting?

A black deuce falls on the river, you hold JT/AT and check, I bet $30 what do you do?

Dont think I would have bet here though given he was OTB and all.

Originally Posted by Fnord

What's your plan if he re-raises the flop to $60? Follows through with a turn push?

There will probably be no turn. Unless hes a total idiot and I know that I give him credit for 2 pair or better and am done with the hand. If does this too often, I catch on.


I think the whole hand was read-based on both parts. It usually ends for me on the $90 raise on the turn.

Thanks for walking us through the hand.

Yes, please visit more often. Your thinking/reading here is exceptional and this is against a player that has skills rather than a run-of-the-mill 200NLer.

Originally Posted by r8ed

Your thinking/reading here is exceptional.

You're being kinda results-oriented.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by r8ed

Your thinking/reading here is exceptional.

You're being kinda results-oriented.

Possibly, but he pointed out his exact thinking based on many factors and his plan on the next street. This level of detailed thinking surpasses 95% of the posts I read on here. So- relatively exceptional.

Fnord wrote:

Why raise the flop? Are you looking to play a big pot with a pair and nothing in pre-flop?



I want him to define his hand. I like raised pots much more. I prefer to take this one down right there.

This makes real sense to me. I raise here for value against a weak hand/information/fold equity with a showdown hand but weakish if the pot gets big on me. And as melancholy notes, top pair gets 3 bet here if its beat which provides an easy laydown. I think that is more adequate to full ring than 6 max but not necesarily so.
Nice, i enjoyed this.

M3lancholy, thanks for responding. Glad to hear your side of it. Sorry I got some of the details mixed up. Bleh.

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

When you raise to 90 I put you on either AJd or JT.

I am curious, what exactly made you put me on this hand range? I am very capable of playing a set or 2-pair this way, which is what I was repping here, and hadn't made any big moves on anyone yet. Since you viewed me as an unknown weak-tight, I figured my turn CR would move you off all one pair hands and draws, and possibly crappy 2-pair hands as well, which I thought made up a significant part of your hand range. When you called the turn CR, I figured I'd most likely be done with the hand unless I hit, but then when the river T hit putting 4-to a straight out there, I was confident that you couldn't call unless you had a king, and maybe an eight, but if my read was right, there are very little hands you would call the turn CR with that had a king or eight in them, KdTd or Td8d being my only real concern. I figured I had enough fold equity to move you off all sets/2-pairs, so I pushed. NH sir.

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

I am curious, what exactly made you put me on this hand range? I am very capable of playing a set or 2-pair this way, which is what I was repping here, and hadn't made any big moves on anyone yet. Since you viewed me as an unknown weak-tight, I figured my turn CR would move you off all one pair hands and draws, and possibly crappy 2-pair hands as well, which I thought made up a significant part of your hand range.

The whole hand was played funny looking at it without hole cards. The turn c/r looks like you're pushing him off a weak bet-when-checked-to. But then again his weak value bet kinda puts him in that spot. It just doesn't quite add up so he decided 1 pair might be good for a juicy pot on this draw heavy board. If you did flop something like a set or 2 pair, why wouldn't you hammer the turn harder? It's really tough to put you on a straight here, but it's really the best made-hand fit for your action thus far.

BTW: I would show down 2 pair on this board quite often.

I cant say why I discounted other hands and put you on a draw, I think it was partly cause I made a weak bet (I am expecting this bet to get raised with a weaker hand quite often actually) and part cause of the bet/call the raise/check line.
You are also forgeting that you think I dont have much and I suspect that.
Actually after 7-8 orbits in a table I tend to suspect that pretty much everyone thinks I never have a hand:P
I also value the time it takes people to act quite a lot which sometimes costs me.

And of course I lose a stack quite often here too if I get too stubborn with my "read". Cause I lag it up (too much sometimes) I have to constantly try and think what do you think I have etc. This puts me in marginal situations for lots of money quite often and the variance is kinda big.

M3lancholy, does this hand play out any different if I CR the turn to $110-120? I suspect probably not, but just wondering. Also, what if the hand played out like this. I check the flop, you bet $6, I CR to $20 and you call. I lead turn for $40. Are you folding here?

Also, how's the $80k goal coming along?

PS. The first hand at our other table, I raised AKo UTG to $8, one caller, and you made it $20 to go from the BB. I folded. How's that for weak-tight!

Havn't read the thread, and we already talked about the first hand on AIM.

2nd hand is just bad, if you really think he has a wide range on this flop I like a flop 3-bet/lead turn much better. Still spewing, but very hard to continue on his part if he doesn't have a huge hand (read, set, or a monster draw like TdJd).

Why go broke in a limped pot with just a flush draw? I don't get it.

PS. The first hand at our other table, I raised AKo UTG to $8, one caller, and you made it $20 to go from the BB. I folded. How's that for weak-tight!

Assuming he wasn't tilting or anything and he was thinking logically about your tightass raising from UTG, how well do you think AKo plays against his range here?

Originally Posted by Lukie

2nd hand is just bad, if you really think he has a wide range on this flop I like a flop 3-bet/lead turn much better.

Fnord suggested this earlier, and I already said that I preferred this line to mine.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Why go broke in a limped pot with just a flush draw? I don't get it.

Well, for one I didn't intend to go broke when I flopped the flush draw. I just felt he was weak, and decided to make a move on the turn. What I actually had was basically irrelevant. I was playing his hand, both our images, and my fold equity vs his range, and I liked my chances. It's just nice to have outs when you try and make a play, just in case you are called. Also, the same argument applies equally to him as well. Why go broke in a limped pot with just TPGK to a tight player who just CR'ed you? He felt I was making a move based on his image, and took a stand. Sure folding to his flop raise or turn bet would be the safest play, but what good are reads if you're not willing to go with them?

Originally Posted by Lukie

PS. The first hand at our other table, I raised AKo UTG to $8, one caller, and you made it $20 to go from the BB. I folded. How's that for weak-tight!

Assuming he wasn't tilting or anything and he was thinking logically about your tightass raising from UTG, how well do you think AKo plays against his range here?

Lukie, this was the first time I had seen M3lancholy play, and I knew he was most likely a thinking player, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt here and folded. If I knew how laggy he really played, I would never fold AK here.

Well, for one I didn't intend to go broke when I flopped the flush draw. I just felt he was weak, and decided to make a move on the turn. What I actually had was basically irrelevant. I was playing his hand, both our images, and my fold equity vs his range, and I liked my chances. It's just nice to have outs when you try and make a play, just in case you are called. Also, the same argument applies equally to him as well. Why go broke in a limped pot with just TPGK to a tight player who just CR'ed you? He felt I was making a move based on his image, and took a stand. Sure folding to his flop raise or turn bet would be the safest play, but what good are reads if you're not willing to go with them?

Was it his strong flop raise, or his strong turn bet that made you feel he was weak? Or was it the fact that your read on him was that you were playing a tight, solid game?

What you have here certainly IS relevant, as it's infinitely making this play with outs then with two cards with no equity against his range. That said, When has playing a 250bb pot post-flop in a 3 way limped pot preflop with nothing but a 4-flush been good poker?

And his play of taking his hands too far (TPGK) works against your argument here, as you have to have a GREAT deal of fold equity for your entire play to be +EV, and I really don't feel like doing those calculations. But the fact that he will play a big pot with that kind of hand certainly doesn't look good for your play here...

As far as reads go, I'm going to have to have one hell of a read to turn a 3bb pot into a 250bb pot when I probably have somewhere between 25% and 35% equity on the flop, much less on the turn, and zero on the river. Like a mob is going to kill him if he goes broke this hand, and he will only put all of it in with the stone cold nuts...

Lukie, this was the first time I had seen M3lancholy play, and I knew he was most likely a thinking player, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt here and folded. If I knew how laggy he really played, I would never fold AK here.

well his 3-bet is very weak and giving you great odds, so that definately favors a call.

But

This doesn't necessarily apply to this hand, but you have to be able to seperate lagg play with maniac play. If m3l 3-bets into a very tight, UTG raiser, out of position with a hand that isn't > AK, then it's the ladder. Don't mistake splashing around in a lot of pots with a huge show of strength like that. Whether or not you think that's the case, well that's a decision you have to make based on imperfect information and not much time. IN GENERAL though, I play tight enough where I feel that, against most players, if I'm holding AK and I'm 3-betted, it's like, what am I looking to hit? They can see the board just as well as I can, and AK is certainly a hand that's going to be in my range. Can we say horrid reverse implied odds situation? Note that I'm not saying AK should be an automuck to a 3-bet, but these are just some common observations I have.

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Also, what if the hand played out like this. I check the flop, you bet $6, I CR to $20 and you call. I lead turn for $40. Are you folding here?

Probably yes. There is also a chance that I re-raise the flop to 55-60. If you call and check, I check behind and re-evaluate your possible river bet.

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Also, how's the $80k goal coming along?

Ahead of schedule. Moving full time to stars might set me back a little but it doest really matter. I am expecting to be at $600 NL in the summer (not lack of BR, lack of skill probably)

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

PS. The first hand at our other table, I raised AKo UTG to $8, one caller, and you made it $20 to go from the BB. I folded. How's that for weak-tight!

Dont remember but probably AA/KK/QQ or (less likely) AKs. Either that or I was just dying to play a pot.