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How bad was this play?

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  1. #1

    Default How bad was this play?

    Here is a recent hand that I think I messed up pretty bad. ANy ideas on what I could have done? I thought pre-flop was good givent he table and when I hit trips, I was good. I guess I should have bet more on the turn, but the thrid heart was scary. All in all, just let me know what you think. Thanks.

    Game #1063118296 - (blinds $0.10/$0.25) No Limit Texas Hold'em -
    2005/11/01-16:31:13.5 (CST)
    Table "Nevis" (real money) -- Seat 2 is the button
    Seat 1: colbywins1 ($19.55 in chips)
    Seat 2: krum2000 ($35.45 in chips)
    Seat 3: sawred ($11.20 in chips)
    Seat 4: WillFro ($14.95 in chips)
    Seat 5: Maikhi ($34.50 in chips)
    Seat 6: swatt31 ($11.05 in chips)
    Seat 7: VincentAnton ($25.40 in chips)
    Seat 8: CarteBlanche ($38.05 in chips)
    Seat 9: Islander828 ($25.75 in chips)
    Seat 10: taz71 ($25.95 in chips)
    sawred : Post Small Blind ($0.10)
    WillFro : Post Big Blind ($0.25)
    Dealing...
    Dealt to krum2000 [ 9c ]
    Dealt to krum2000 [ 9d ]
    Maikhi : Fold
    swatt31 : Call ($0.25)
    VincentAnton: Call ($0.25)
    CarteBlanche: Fold
    Islander828: Fold
    taz71 : Fold
    colbywins1: Call ($0.25)
    krum2000: Raise ($2.25)
    sawred : Fold
    WillFro : Fold
    swatt31 : Fold
    VincentAnton: Fold
    colbywins1: Call ($2)
    *** FLOP *** : [ 9h 7h As ]
    colbywins1: Check
    krum2000: Check
    *** TURN *** : [ 9h 7h As ] [ 6h ]
    colbywins1: Check
    krum2000: Bet ($2)
    colbywins1: Call ($2)
    *** RIVER *** : [ 9h 7h As 6h ] [ Tc ]
    colbywins1: Check
    krum2000: Bet ($4)
    colbywins1: Call ($4)
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Pot: $16.55 | Rake: $0.80
    Board: [ 9h 7h As 6h Tc ]
    colbywins1 bet $8.25, collected $16.55, net +$8.30 (showed hand) [ 8s 8d ] (a
    straight, six to ten)
    krum2000 lost $8.25 (showed hand) [ 9c 9d ] (three of a kind, nines)
    sawred lost $0.10 (folded)
    WillFro lost $0.25 (folded)
    Maikhi didn't bet (folded)
    swatt31 lost $0.25 (folded)
    VincentAnton lost $0.25 (folded)
    CarteBlanche didn't bet (folded)
    Islander828 didn't bet (folded)
    taz71 didn't bet (folded)
  2. #2
    Lukie's Avatar
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    Hmm.. I don't really know where to start.

    Explain the thought process behind the 9xBB raise with 99 preflop, checking behind on the flop with middle set on a draw heavy board, the weak bet behind on the 3 flush, 3 straight board on the turn, and IMO the worst play of the hand, betting behind on the river with 3 of a kind on a 3-flush, 4-straight board.

    My advice would be to stay at these limits, stick around FTR, learn some things, maybe buy a book or two on holdem. Seriously.
  3. #3
    Thansk for the advice. I know Im not as bad as this play makes me look. I've actually had pretty good success at these levels after reading Harringtons two books, building my BR to 700, from 50. Anyway- this hand. People had been limping and seeing cheap flops for the last hour or so. I figured my big (huge) pre flop raise would win it right there. So, I get one caller, I figure overcards. Maybe AQ or AJ suited, or a middle pair. You can never tell what these people will try and limp with. So, the check on the flop was bad, no probably awful and I don't usually try and trap, especially on two flush board. So, when he checks the three flush, I figure he is either trapping or still just has crap or an ace. So the bet was small, but I wanted to be able to fold to a big reraise without getting killed. When he called, I figured he had the ace. The River puts a gutshot straight out there, but I cannot put him on eights at his point, so I just put in a small value bet. Obvioulsy, I was wrong and I played the hand horribly-especially the flop check. I'm pretty new to FTR, so any advice would be helpful. Sorry if this hand makes me look like more than an idiot than I really am. Hopefully you can understand what I was thinking. Thanks for the help.
  4. #4
    To say this was played considerably bad would be an understatement.

    I get one caller, I figure overcards. Maybe AQ or AJ suited, or a middle pair.
    The River puts a gutshot straight out there, but I cannot put him on eights at [t]his point
    Shall I assume that, having originaly put your opposition on a mid pair or Axs you decided to completely ignore this and... throw money away?
  5. #5
    This hand was played backwards.

    Pre-flop: Either limp along or build a pot. I don't like 9x because I want to play my hand post-flop and if re-raised I'm in a tough spot.

    Flop: Backwards poker. Got to bet it more often than not when you have it.

    Turn: Bet more

    River: Bet more, checking the turn really makes it hard to get in lots of money when your opponent catches second best.
  6. #6
    Not sure who plays 25NL and who doesn't, but a 2.25 raise in this spot is not really that extreme. My standard raise at the 25NL tables is 1.5, oftentimes I raise 2 or as much as people are willing to call. Nothing wrong preflop, in my opinion.
    Checking the flop is a bad idea. Don't do that. When you flop a set don't go into auto-slowplay; the hand is not locked and on this board it's dangerous to give a free card.
    So on the turn you wake up and decide - oh crap, maybe I should've bet, so why don't I bet? And you bet not even half the pot. He's getting too good odds. Either bet strong here or check (my preference is to bet strong).
    The river bet is also bad. Think about the hands that call you here. Straight and low flushes probably call. High flushes raise you (I hope to God you were planning on folding to a raise). A set might call. Two pair if they're a complete donk. Almost every hand that calls you beats you. So why bet?
    On the other hand...the merits of checking....if he's a perpetual bluffer he may bet into you, which you can call depending on the bet (I doubt I would call here unless he was a known maniac, which judging from this hand, he isn't). If he's a weak player (= most players at this level) he'll check behind with almost anything but a high/possibly low flush. In which case you fold if he bets.

    The moral of the story: don't give free cards. The turn and river were unfortunate cards for you. And you did get outdrawn quite horribly, I'm afraid. But there are more profitable ways of dealing with the situation instead of acting one street too late on almost every round
  7. #7
    you look like some kind of retard raising 9x BB's preflop...and the flop comes.. and you check...? HMM I WONDER IF YOU HAVE A MONSTER? limp preflop, bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river. NEVER SLOWPLAY WHEN THE FLOP HAS SUITED CONNECTORS/GAPPERS (unless you have a boat).
  8. #8
    How to destroy piss poor small stakes NLHE players in 2 easy steps:
    1) Build a pot with generally better cards than them and lock up position in the process.
    2) Ruthlessly value bet.

    Don't make it any harder than that.

    9x isn't building a pot, it's either trying to bully the pot pre-flop or protecting a big pocket pair.
  9. #9
    Lukie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    This hand was played backwards.

    Pre-flop: Either limp along or build a pot. I don't like 9x because I want to play my hand post-flop and if re-raised I'm in a tough spot.

    Flop: Backwards poker. Got to bet it more often than not when you have it.

    Turn: Bet more

    River: Bet more, checking the turn really makes it hard to get in lots of money when your opponent catches second best.
    I agree with the analysis up until the river. What is the value of betting more on the river there? It should clearly be checked behind IMO.
  10. #10
    RET THE POT - Low NL there is an ace on the flop, 9999 out of 10, 000 times someone will have the ace and will pay you with a smile on their face Thera are also many fish who will chase the gutshot with TJ on this flop, + other idiots who are to stubborn to fold. There are very few cases in which slowplay is the correct play this is clearly not one of them
    Tom.S
  11. #11
    Ok krum2000, I want to give you props for coming on and asking for help. I won't assume that I know everything wrong with your game based on one hand that you're admitting you had a problem with.

    You're a big stack at the beginning of this hand. You might have been running the table a bit and known full well what your effect on the table was, and what would happen when you raised. You said in your follow-up post that you wanted to take the pot right there, and if that's true, you probably knew what you were doing since almost everybody folded.

    Like fnord implied, 99 is a fun hand to play poker with. If you can play post-flop, you can make a nice pot with this hand every so often, so it's not the most attractive candidate for stealing blinds/limps.. But you chose to try and steal with it, and you almost did it. Not as horrible of a play as it's been made out to be, but a play that's suited better to short stack moves (at least at 25NL). You don't want to flirt with coinflip scenarios (or worse) this voluntarily when you don't need to.

    As far as the flop goes, I think you probably knew it was a mistake before you clicked the check button. Might make this kind of mistake every so often. Hopefully less-so over time. Might get rewarded for making this mistake every so often. You are not a retard. This is a plenty common mistake, and slowplaying a made hand against an underdog can be a temptation. Just remember that you are sacrificing opportunities to get information when you start playing tricky/slow, so you better have a tighter read on your opp when you do (i.e. - know that he isn't drawing), or it can bite you in the ass as it did here.

    You made the small turn bet for 'safety' reasons, but you can see how that can invite more danger. Most players at 25NL aren't gonna bet (or-reraise) a nut flush when they make it with cards left to come. The size of your bet is smaller than what you raised preflop, less than half the pot, and typically shows fear of the board. You're giving him fair odds to keep drawing (which you would want to still be considering...don't just think flush) plus the opportunity to represent the flush depending on what you do on the river (he'll be watching, to get more meaning from your turn bet).

    And besides giving the strength of your hand away (it doesn't matter that you're giving it to a worse hand), your turn bet doesn't necessarily buy you a lot of info. Say he made the nut flush on the turn. Even if he has a superman read on you and knows you have a set of 9's, you think he'll re-raise the turn to protect? Your chances of making full on the river are not super threatening and he'd want to keep you in the hand more often than not. You'll get the same call you did in this hand many times. This way he also keeps from looking too strong so he can try for a couple extra bets on the river when the board doesn't pair and he knows he has the immortal nuts. I think you're more likely to get raised by a hand that's still drawing or a hand that was made on the flop. Really, he should have tried for this with his straight anyway, and since he didn't ever reraise you, he wasn't sure if he had been drawing dead which makes his calls 10x worse than your bets if it makes you feel better about this hand. The main thing wrong with your betting was the lack thereof or the lack in size.

    The river bet is bigger than the turn most of the time, so if you're losing to a flush already you don't want to get smacked for one more round at your opponents chosen price. It's time to find out now. It cost you $6 for the turn and river combined to play it the way you did (going into a ~$5 pot after checking the flop) and gave him the opportunity to draw, bluff and win. Two of which he did, and a different player could have easily check-raised your turn or river bet with or without the goods. Consider what would happen if you bet that same $6 or so on the turn. A pair of eights with a straight draw will think a little harder before following you to showdown with 3 hearts and overcards on the board. You'll make it a thin call for lots of hands and maybe even get some players to fold a baby flush (unless you're too easy to read because they know you usually slowplay bigger hands). A high or nut flush will re-raise you, or call and bet the river. You fold to major aggression at this point, and oh well, nh opp. But a lot of times you'll take it on the turn. Remember that your 'safety bet' should be enough to help you know when you're beat by telling your opp you think you're strong, not vice versa.
  12. #12
    First of all I want to say thanks for all the replys and advice. The reason I posted this hand was because I know I really messed it up and it would be a good learning situation. It wouldn't do me much good to post hands where I raked a 50 dollar pot (Thats big for me). Overall, I don't think the pre flop raise was that bad given the table. The check on the flop and weak play afterwards did not allow me to define my hand and is what lost the pot. Oh well, it is just one hand, and trust me, I am doing fine. Thanks for all the advice and look forward to some other interesting hands from me in the future... hopefully that I win.
  13. #13
    9xBB is still a bad raise. You will lose more money in the long run.

    Bet the flop hard. They called 9xBB preflop, I would guess they have a strong ace or a pocket pair. If they have the strong ace, you have them dominated, and they'll spew money into the pot. If they have the PP, they'll drop it, and you don't have to worry about taking the hand any further. You just won yourself 9BB's, which isn't too bad considering it was a bad overbet.

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