How did he know he had best hand?

I usually dont bluff. I thought this time though I would try to take the pot with nothing. I know it wasnt a good play, but with so much that could have beat him. How did he make this call? Was it the way I betted that gave away I didnt hit? Or would he have called just cause he had a piece of the board?

Game #1123398067 - (blinds $0.50/$1) No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2005/11/30-10:46:33.4 (CST)
Table "Garove" (real money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: Yogi G Luv ($110.25 in chips)
Seat 2: rugoatee ($132.75 in chips)
Seat 3: Brozy ($58.75 in chips)
Seat 4: IRISH2 ($85.00 in chips)
Seat 5: Windblow ($100.00 in chips)
Seat 6: Blufftrash ($164.25 in chips)
Seat 7: kpeezzy ($99.00 in chips)
Seat 8: TinTucker ($122.25 in chips)
Seat 9: stagman ($144.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Ugly Ed ($42.00 in chips)
kpeezzy : Post Small Blind ($0.50)
TinTucker: Post Big Blind ($1)
Windblow: Post ($1)
Dealing...
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ Kd ]
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ As ]
stagman : Call ($1)
Ugly Ed : Raise ($3)
Yogi G Luv: Fold
rugoatee: Fold
Brozy : Fold
IRISH2 : Call ($3)
Windblow: Fold
Blufftrash: Fold
kpeezzy : Fold
TinTucker: Fold
stagman : Call ($2)
*** FLOP *** : [ 3h 9c Jd ]
stagman : Check
Ugly Ed : Bet ($4)
IRISH2 : Call ($4)
stagman : Fold
*** TURN *** : [ 3h 9c Jd ] [ Qd ]
Ugly Ed : Bet ($4)
IRISH2 : Call ($4)
*** RIVER *** : [ 3h 9c Jd Qd ] [ 6d ]
Ugly Ed : Bet ($5)
IRISH2 : Call ($5)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $35.75 | Rake: $1.75
Board: [ 3h 9c Jd Qd 6d ]
Yogi G Luv didn't bet (folded)
rugoatee didn't bet (folded)
Brozy didn't bet (folded)
IRISH2 bet $16, collected $35.75, net +$19.75 (showed hand) [ Js Ts ] (a pair of jacks)
Windblow lost $1 (folded)
Blufftrash didn't bet (folded)
kpeezzy lost $0.50 (folded)
TinTucker lost $1 (folded)
stagman lost $3 (folded)
Ugly Ed lost $16 (showed hand) [ Kd As ] (high card ace)
-----------------------------------------------------

You didn't even bet half the pot on the flop - threw out the same bet on the turn - and just a slight bump up on the river...classic AK woops I missed betting style when I see it - except usually the missed AK goes allin on the river

Are you considering the possibility that he's a calling station donk that won't let go of TPPK? And your bets were weak.

he doesnt have to know. with the small river bet, he only needs to be right 1/5 tries to break even. while it is very brave to make a bluff the size of what a value bet would be, if he has a big piece, youll never lose him.

and there really wasnt much that beats him. once you bet out small on the flop, you really lose the chance to represent the queen later in any meaningful way. the queen actually gives him more outs as hes open ended, and you lose your three kings. he missed a chance to raise on the turn, imo.

Thanks, now I see better where I went wrong. I guess I was kinda hoping he thought I was just value betting. Not to much for him to fold. Just trying to get more out of him. I thought maybe with the flush possibilty on the River he would think I had been betting a flush draw. I wont make the same play again. Just seeing what would happen. Then wondered why, with with the overcard and the flush draw he didnt fold to any bet.

If though I would have had the better hand. I may have gotten the best value out of it. Betting like I did. Right?

Flop: he called $4 into a $13 pot w/TP = justified.
Turn: he called a $4 bet into a $21 pot with 2nd pair = justified.
River: He called a $5 bet into a $30 pot with 2nd pair = justified because he had top pair after the flop and only one overcard on the board.

I would have played it the same way if I were him.

As for you... you should be in check/fold mode after his call on the flop. Quit giving him money.

If you wanted to bluff him out, represent the queen by making a large bet on the turn then a large bet on the river.

He had TP on flop.

He turned middle pair and a OE str8 draw.

You did not blow him off the hand.

If you wanted to really "BLUFF" you push bigger on river when flush gets there. Otherwise give it up.

You will destack him when you river the 10 for the nut str8. That's the price of poker. At least you bet aggressive the whole hand. Next time you use same betting pattern when you hit a huge flop and you get paid.

i make this call with any pair, this is the general betting pattern fishies have after they miss their AK.
I suggestalways raising more than 50% of the pot, anything less is just a meaningless bet. increasing your river bet by $1 accomplishes nothing...

BTW it's clear you have much to learn, I strongly suggest moving down 1 or 2 levels, unless your absolutley loaded, the competetion between 25NL and 100NL is very close, but the cost of learning is 4x cheaper.

Originally Posted by TalentedTom

BTW it's clear you have much to learn, I strongly suggest moving down 1 or 2 levels, unless your absolutley loaded, the competetion between 25NL and 100NL is very close, but the cost of learning is 4x cheaper.

(PokerStars) 100NL is tighter. Hand reading and selective aggression are rewarded more and set camping (in unraised pots) is rewarded less as most other deep stacks won't stack off without 2pair or a monster combo draw in an unraised pot.

My style of selective aggression on eary streets with pure value betting on later streets tears this game up because the nits fold too easily to me and the donks call me down when I have it.

Ugly Ed - For bluffs to work (more times than not) they have to be believeable. Put yourself in your opponents place what are you telling him from your bets. Now this depends on hands played before by yourself and him - betting patterns -image tight/loose passive/aggressive.

How strong can you be to bet $4 into a $13 pot with a flop of 3h9cJd then another $4 into a $21 pot when the Qd hits the turn - with a straight and a flush draw now out there most strong hands would be giving drawing hands the wrong odds to chase here.

Your opponent probally wasn't sure on the flop if he was ahead but with the size of the bet it was an easy call to see how you would react on the turn - with your turn bet i'm sure your opponent was now aware that he was ahead but with having a weak hand/but strong draw thought it was better just to call just incase you were playing an over pair strangely.

BTW it's clear you have much to learn, I strongly suggest moving down 1 or 2 levels, unless your absolutley loaded, the competetion between 25NL and 100NL is very close, but the cost of learning is 4x cheaper.

No I am not loaded. Over all, the the past few months I have been playing I am down some money. The last month though I have actually made more than I lost. I have been trying some experimenting, and testing things. Usually though I can get focused play some good hands and atleast break even. Like this week I have played in 2 30$ buy in/rebuy tourneys. Quite a few SNGs, and 5$ tourneys and probably 4-5 thousand hands. Had 1000 one day. I still have 135$ out of the 150$ I left in my account from a week ago. The main thing is the experienced I have gained. I have tried and experienced alot. Had some things go horrible then some things go great. Thats why this site and the people here are so great. I love that I can try something, or have something happen. Then find out exactly what went wrong and sometimes right.

Anyway I did play at the lower levels .01/.02 and everything up to .5/1$. I have done better since I have been playing at the higher level. At the lower levels it just felt like every hand was like rolling dice. Start with AA big bets all the way and lose cause someone sucks out a str8, or some low 2 pair.

Although I think some people do use the lower levels to learn, and actually DO try to play Poker the right way. It seems that more people have the attitude "what the hell its only 50 cents I'll call mb I will get one of my 3 outs." Not thinking that at that level it is a pretty good size bet. Equivalent to 3$-1000$ or more at higher levels. They dont think about it like a % of the BB. Its just 50 cents. They could lose 5 buy in amounts and it be less than a few beers and maybe a lap dance at the bar. So they dont care. That makes it hard to play Poker the way you should (as in what you learn from books or, advice from experienced players) at the real low levels.

Any decent player knows you dont play A6 for a 4xbb raise in early position or any really. But if that 4xBB only equals a dollar or less they play it. So the player trying to learn to play Poker the right way gets AK, and bets around 4xbb, and gets a few callers maybe even 5 or more. The board comes 5A368. The player makes proper bets all the way. Still lots of times they lose to A6 or A8, or even 79. So even with AK and a board like that it is scary.
I have sat and watched at Poker sites with people playing 100$/200$ blinds. A 4xbb bet there is 800$. There is not near as many people that will take a chance with A6 for 800$ as there are that will for 1$ or less. Only about half the flops even happen at those high levels, and more than 3 ppl in it is rare.
So even though people play junk like that at the level I play. It isnt nearly as bad. Usually if I go 4$ pre flop (4xbb). I wont get more than 2-3 callers usually less. If I play at the .10/.25 level and go 1$. Its nothing to get 5 callers. At the .01/.02 level and I go .08. The whole table maybe in. Except for the 1 other person trying to play Poker the right way. .5/1$ IS the most I can afford to play at. Atleast there I feel that although, it still isnt near the levels of really good players. It is better experience that at lower levels.

So after this big pretty much off topic post. I want to thank you all again for the help you have given me. I will have a lot more questions and hands for you. To be able to learn from the huge amount of experience that is at this site. Truely is priceless.
Thanks Ed

did i read that right. are you playing at a $100 max table with a $130-$150 bankroll??? and it is possible to play poker at the .10/.20 and .25/.50 levels. you are just playing against a fairly large number of bad players, which isnt all that bad.

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

BTW it's clear you have much to learn, I strongly suggest moving down 1 or 2 levels, unless your absolutley loaded, the competetion between 25NL and 100NL is very close, but the cost of learning is 4x cheaper.

No I am not loaded. Over all, the the past few months I have been playing I am down some money. The last month though I have actually made more than I lost. I have been trying some experimenting, and testing things. Usually though I can get focused play some good hands and atleast break even. Like this week I have played in 2 30$ buy in/rebuy tourneys. Quite a few SNGs, and 5$ tourneys and probably 4-5 thousand hands. Had 1000 one day. I still have 135$ out of the 150$ I left in my account from a week ago. The main thing is the experienced I have gained. I have tried and experienced alot. Had some things go horrible then some things go great. Thats why this site and the people here are so great. I love that I can try something, or have something happen. Then find out exactly what went wrong and sometimes right.

Anyway I did play at the lower levels .01/.02 and everything up to .5/1$. I have done better since I have been playing at the higher level. At the lower levels it just felt like every hand was like rolling dice. Start with AA big bets all the way and lose cause someone sucks out a str8, or some low 2 pair.

Although I think some people do use the lower levels to learn, and actually DO try to play Poker the right way. It seems that more people have the attitude "what the hell its only 50 cents I'll call mb I will get one of my 3 outs." Not thinking that at that level it is a pretty good size bet. Equivalent to 3$-1000$ or more at higher levels. They dont think about it like a % of the BB. Its just 50 cents. They could lose 5 buy in amounts and it be less than a few beers and maybe a lap dance at the bar. So they dont care. That makes it hard to play Poker the way you should (as in what you learn from books or, advice from experienced players) at the real low levels.

Any decent player knows you dont play A6 for a 4xbb raise in early position or any really. But if that 4xBB only equals a dollar or less they play it. So the player trying to learn to play Poker the right way gets AK, and bets around 4xbb, and gets a few callers maybe even 5 or more. The board comes 5A368. The player makes proper bets all the way. Still lots of times they lose to A6 or A8, or even 79. So even with AK and a board like that it is scary.
I have sat and watched at Poker sites with people playing 100$/200$ blinds. A 4xbb bet there is 800$. There is not near as many people that will take a chance with A6 for 800$ as there are that will for 1$ or less. Only about half the flops even happen at those high levels, and more than 3 ppl in it is rare.
So even though people play junk like that at the level I play. It isnt nearly as bad. Usually if I go 4$ pre flop (4xbb). I wont get more than 2-3 callers usually less. If I play at the .10/.25 level and go 1$. Its nothing to get 5 callers. At the .01/.02 level and I go .08. The whole table maybe in. Except for the 1 other person trying to play Poker the right way. .5/1$ IS the most I can afford to play at. Atleast there I feel that although, it still isnt near the levels of really good players. It is better experience that at lower levels.

So after this big pretty much off topic post. I want to thank you all again for the help you have given me. I will have a lot more questions and hands for you. To be able to learn from the huge amount of experience that is at this site. Truely is priceless.
Thanks Ed

If you think it's harder to play a game where people throw chips into the pot with inferior hands and call big bets(for that respective limit) with 3-outers, then you really don't understand anything about poker.

did i read that right. are you playing at a $100 max table with a $130-$150 bankroll???

Basically yea. I mean I dont have a real Poker bank roll. I will just deposit 100$ or so a week if needed. The money I am playing on now I deposited 100$ few weeks ago. I took out 200$ I had won. Then kept 150$. Thats it for a bank roll. Like I said I am trying to gain experience. So if I lose 100$ one week. Its not a huge deal. Most of the time I can go to a 100nl with 40$. Play fairly tight and get up over 100 sometimes 200. I usually end up making a few costly mistakes and leave with 50$. If I can fix those mistakes. I could actually maybe make money.

If you think it's harder to play a game where people throw chips into the pot with inferior hands and call big bets(for that respective limit) with 3-outers

Yes I do

then you really don't understand anything about poker.

No where near what I would like to.

I am just saying what my experience has been. Try it sometime. If you normally play higher limits. Go down to the 25nl or 10nl. Play your normal game. See how well you do. There are certain things that you can count on at higher limits, cause its more likely too have better players. You cant count on anything at lower levels. Like I said a 4xbb pre flop raise that = 1$ or at a 25nl table will get you 5 callers almost everytime. A 4xbb that =$800 may have 1-2 callers. Yea more to win with more people, also more chances to lose.

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

I am just saying what my experience has been. Try it sometime. If you normally play higher limits. Go down to the 25nl or 10nl. Play your normal game. See how well you do. There are certain things that you can count on at higher limits, cause its more likely too have better players. You cant count on anything at lower levels. Like I said a 4xbb pre flop raise that = 1$ or at a 25nl table will get you 5 callers almost everytime. A 4xbb that =$800 may have 1-2 callers. Yea more to win with more people, also more chances to lose.

If you're getting 4-5 callers, jack up your preflop standard raise. Make it 6xBB, or even 8xBB if you're playing with really bad calling stations. Playing in a game where people throw their chips in chasing backdoor flush draws and gutshots is the EASIEST AND MOST PROFITABLE game to play in. If you aren't capable of crushing this type of game you will have a very hard time making money at higher levels. I know you've heard this many times before but it's the truth.

I do know what you're talking about though, about being frustrated that these stupid fish call you with crap and hit their garbage 2-pair to crack your AA, but in the end it is only variance. Whenever I get badbeat it hurts, but I just try to shake it off, because I remember how good it feels to get your money in with top set versus an idiot with a flush draw that doesn't come, and watch the pot slide your way. I think you probably have had a few bad suckouts and that has left a bitter taste for low limits, so you decide to move up to limits where people aren't that dumb. Well let me tell you, at 100NL there are still fish that make the same kind of plays at 25NL (not as much, but still a good number), but there are also more skilled and aware players looking to pounce if you make a mistake.

My suggestion for you is to "start clean." Scrape up some cash (maybe $400-500) and deposit it into a site and make up your mind that there will be no more redepositing. This is your bankroll. Never play out of your BR (20 buyins minimum), so that means starting out at 25NL. I know it's humbling to move down not one, but 2 limits, but if you learn and apply the basics properly, you will be back up to 100NL very quickly. Take advantage of some bonuses and play good, tight poker and you will have a 1k roll in no time. Also, if you don't multitable already, I highly recommend you start. It really lets you play a lot tighter and be more patient, so you don't start playing crap since you haven't been dealt a premium for a long time. Also read the Newbie Circle of Death thread in the beginners section.

Bdawg has given good advice.

You have to be willing to deal with a few suckouts at the lower levels - those are the people who normally pay you - it's just that statistically they will get lucky from time to time.

The dinky limit tables do play differently - that's for sure.
But it's because the players are so much worse - and that's a good thing. If those same people were pulling the same crap (calling down with gutshot straight draws and weaker kickers) at the $100 level - woohoo!!

Best of luck!

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

I usually dont bluff. I thought this time though I would try to take the pot with nothing.

So your read was a whim? Ed, you bluff because you feel you can make your opponent fold. Neither your reason nor method were sound here.

Also, you can learn to play poker at 25NL. People are sane enough not to warp your education, and bad enough to pay you off even when you make mistakes.

You've clearly demonstrated that your skill level and bankroll is below 100NL. What that equates to is that it's not a matter of if you'll lose your money, but how fast you'll lose a lot of it. Do you think that playing with higher skilled players will teach you how to play better poker faster? Like some kind of freaky abridged mail order brain surgery course? Bad logic. You learn this game by seeing a boatload of flops and situations. By analyzing betting patterns and tendancies. By defining table image and texture. These people you're sitting with have seen thousands upon thousands of hands and situations. they've been there and done that. Playing with better players is a much later stage of your development, after many other lessons have been cemented. Haste is waste. Be patient and do your time in the trenches like everyone else did. Then someday you can visit the penthouse when you're worthy.

P.S. Your first lesson should be "How do I beat bad min stakes players?" There's a definate answer.