How tight is too tight?

I'd like to throw out a somewhat vague question about tightness. I'm constantly trying to morph my game into one that is raising/3betting a significant amount preflop... I see many winning players (renton, setzy, spoonitnow) running around 15/13 or 13/11, somewhere in there. I feel like this is giving my game a great deal of variance, and I'm still running more like 15/9 or so.

My question is how tight can a person run and still achieve breakeven poker (minus the bonuses). Is 9/7 acceptable?... Will regulars fuggin' pwn this guy?

Along with this comes a question about what range are you flat calling?? Obviously running PFR so close to VP$P... there are precious few hands that are being flat called. Normally I wouldn't ask for such precious information.. but since this only accounts for 2% of hands... I'm hoping it won't be too difficult to respond.

thanks

i run a little tighter than most of the full ring regs on this site, about 12/9/3 but I'm currently beating 100nl on FTP for about 3.5ptbb/100. I remember reading it somewhere on this site but preflop stats are just a preference, all the crucial decisions come on the later streets. I don't have any experience running 9/7 but if you correctly use your extremely tight image in the correct spots, and can play well postflop, im sure you can beat most regs at the lower midstakes. My flat calling range is essentially only pocket pairs and the occasional sc IP. I will also sometimes just flat AK or AQ against a relatively tight EP raiser.

I've also been thinking about good spots to 3 bet light pre, as i think it could be extremely profitable in games where 3 betting is very well respected, but i usually just do it against CO or button raises. this is an area of my game i need to work on so i would be interested in hearing how you are attempting to morph your game.

If you're beating the game then you're probably fine to be honest, but opening up in the right places could probably help your win-rate. After all, we're always trying to improve our skill and money-making ability.

I'd be very interested in knowing what your attempt to steal % is, and I'll probably reply with ramblings to deal with that if [when] you post it. I don't feel like I can appropriately address the VP$IP/PFR issue without knowing that piece of information.

Pre-flop I generally flat call in position with SCs and PPs according to the 5/10 rule: if it's less than 5% of the effective stack, I almost always call, and if it's more than 10% of the effective stack, I almost always fold. If it's between 5-10%, then that's a judgment call. Occasionally against a loose MP raise I'll call in position with something like KQs or AJs that I don't think is strong enough for a 3-bet but that I think is still profitable.

The vague explanation for when I 3-bet preflop is when I'm in position and I think my hand is better than half or so of the raiser's range. If you want to look for spots to start opening up your 3-betting, look to 3-bet AQ in LP against MP/LP raises from moderate to loose players. Then you can go from there and figure it out.

You're too tight if:

You are not calling with proper pot odds or implied odds

You routinely fold the best hand

You never get caught bluffing

You get made fun of by the rest of the table

Your bf can't get his dick in

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

You get made fun of by the rest of the table

Happens all of the time in live games. People vastly under-estimate my ranges and bluff frequency because I refuse to loosen up past a certain point.

hey, i cant run 12/9 for the life of me. any tighter than that and i may shoot myself for boredom's sake. these styles are killing poker, imo, by all the AK waiting for AQ battles.

i dont advocate 30/20 poker either. but, damn. spew a little. it helps your post flop skills if you are paying attention.


and, btw, good one, drew. who is your bf anyway...and does he need an oil can?

In the mornings when I'm up early, the 200nl tables are full of the 12/8 types that you can steal from over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. It's fun.

i wasn't advocating 12/9 as ideal (like there are magic perfect preflop stats), but it certainly can be a winning style. even at 100nl there are so many opps who dont have a clue about anything except their cards, and against the regs who somewhat pay attention, its not too hard to use your image to your advantage and steal some nice pots. just throwing it out there that you can still run tight and beat games. i think most if not all of us would agree that its really all about postflop skills, and if you can't make good marginal postflop decisions, playing a little tighter pre might make those decisions a whole lot easier.

Originally Posted by Chopper

hey, i cant run 12/9 for the life of me. any tighter than that and i may shoot myself for boredom's sake. these styles are killing poker, imo, by all the AK waiting for AQ battles.

i dont advocate 30/20 poker either. but, damn. spew a little. it helps your post flop skills if you are paying attention.


and, btw, good one, drew. who is your bf anyway...and does he need an oil can?

ty for saying this


this isn't poker imo, waaaaaaaaaaaaay too risk averse

maybe taking your br and investing in a mutual fund somewhere is a better idea than running like this

Originally Posted by PapalRage

i wasn't advocating 12/9 as ideal (like there are magic perfect preflop stats), but it certainly can be a winning style. even at 100nl there are so many opps who dont have a clue about anything except their cards, and against the regs who somewhat pay attention, its not too hard to use your image to your advantage and steal some nice pots. just throwing it out there that you can still run tight and beat games. i think most if not all of us would agree that its really all about postflop skills, and if you can't make good marginal postflop decisions, playing a little tighter pre might make those decisions a whole lot easier.

Getting better post-flop is more +EV though.

My % to steal blinds is 20.4%... and my stats are roughly 15/8.

I run anywhere between 10/5 and 35/25.

i play tight live games like baby turtle s and rarely steal blinds coz it's multi-way pot all the time in every single hand :P Honestly, donks at casino don't really care about my tight image and still pay off huge with worse hands always. :P .As for online, i play far more aggressively like 17/ 11, my attention to steal% up to 30%.

Originally Posted by kingnat

My % to steal blinds is 20.4%... and my stats are roughly 15/8.

I would suggest you steal more and perhaps tighten up in EP, but I'd need your position stats to know for sure on the second part there.

You could probably get up to 15/10 or 15/11 just by stealing more. It sounds like a big adjustment but it's not really. Open raise more suited connectors, unsuited connectors 54 and up, suited 1-gappers, suited aces, suited kings K7 and up or so.

Stealing a little more will help your image as a nit and probably raise your win-rate 1 ptbb/100 or more.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

...probably raise your win-rate 1 ptbb/100 or more.

That line alone gave me wood.


I'll post some positional stats soon (however embarrassing that they might be...)

Originally Posted by kingnat

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

...probably raise your win-rate 1 ptbb/100 or more.

That line alone gave me wood.


I'll post some positional stats soon (however embarrassing that they might be...)

Man there's nothing to be embarrassed about, although I know the feeling. One of the biggest ways to find spots to explore in your game is by comparing PT stats and letting people discuss them.

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Originally Posted by kingnat

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

...probably raise your win-rate 1 ptbb/100 or more.

That line alone gave me wood.


I'll post some positional stats soon (however embarrassing that they might be...)

Man there's nothing to be embarrassed about, although I know the feeling. One of the biggest ways to find spots to explore in your game is by comparing PT stats and letting people discuss them.

agreed agreed agreed.

Is it too tight to fold a full boat on the river? Just curious...

Originally Posted by Pythonic

Is it too tight to fold a full boat on the river? Just curious...

In an attempt to not be like "What the fuck kind of question is this," the question isn't really about being tight. Sometimes it's correct to fold a full house on the river.

sometimes it may be correct to fold a fh on the flop too.

double post