How's my line, too weak?

Opponent is a normal Sunday night Stars player. Semi-tight, passive. Seen nothing out of line in 30 minutes.

PokerStars: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) Table 'Salyut' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Mister206 ($32.70 in chips)
Seat 2: 11IIIIIII11 ($47.30 in chips)
Seat 3: megs3133 ($37.70 in chips)
Seat 4: nascarfan40 ($21.85 in chips)
Seat 5: JayRen ($36.85 in chips)
Seat 6: Silly String ($27.70 in chips)
Seat 7: KronikBuddha ($26.75 in chips)
Seat 8: rjd420 ($20.10 in chips)
nascarfan40: posts small blind $0.10
JayRen: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Silly String A Q
Silly String: raises $0.75 to $1
KronikBuddha: folds
rjd420: folds
Mister206: folds
11IIIIIII11: folds
megs3133: calls $1
nascarfan40: folds
JayRen: folds
*** FLOP *** 2 K 3
nolimit707 has returned
Silly String: checks
megs3133: checks
*** TURN *** Q
Silly String: bets $1.75
megs3133: calls $1.75
*** RIVER *** J
Silly String: ?

Bet the river 1/2 to whole pot.

If he had a K he would bet the flop-he didn't.

If he re-raised on river I might also call that as a busted flush who watched too much T.V. may try to bluff you.

Before the river was fine, you didn't have much of anything to work with.

If he moves in on you, it gives you something to think about, w/o a read on the guy I might fold to an AI bet there with the 2 pair and str8 possibilities.

I quarter pot it or check, fold to a raise. It is quite possible he checked behind on the flop with a K.

One can’t necessarily expect a flop bet there from a semi tight passive. A passive is more likely to check behind waiting for someone to bet.

Bet the flop, turn and river. He'll give you more info that way.

What does 1/4 pot say, except please re-raise me I have 2nd pair and want to win this cheap. Does that work for you or do you get re-raised often?

The player does not seem passive enough to check a K on a drawing board.

Originally Posted by SteveO

Bet the river 1/2 to whole pot.

If he had a K he would bet the flop-he didn't. AGREED

If he re-raised on river I might also call that as a busted flush who watched too much T.V. may try to bluff you. possible

Before the river was fine, you didn't have much of anything to work with.

If he moves in on you, it gives you something to think about, w/o a read on the guy I might fold to an AI bet there with the 2 pair and str8 possibilities.

Is checking too weak? Should I fear AT drawing from the button or two pair(QJ)?

Originally Posted by Silly String

What does 1/4 pot say, except please re-raise me I have 2nd pair and want to win this cheap. Does that work for you or do you get re-raised often?

The player does not seem passive enough to check a K on a drawing board.

Quarter pot is small enough to be callable with any pp or bottom set. It’s a small value bet when you think you are best but may not be. Passive players don’t reraise just because they see a weak bet, hehe, they just call and bet small when they hit.

If you don’t put him on a K then bet half pot as a value bet...again, fold to a raise. The pot is not large, no reason to over bet hoping to push off a better hand.

Yeah, che cking is a little weak. It's tough because you are out of position but act like your hand is best until he tells you otherwise.

I'm not saying to take this one to the felt but you hand is strong enough to warrant a bet on the river.

Originally Posted by EricE

Quarter pot is small enough to be callable with any pp or bottom set. It’s a small value bet when you think you are best but may not be. [b] Passive players don’t reraise just because they see a weak bet, hehe, they just call and bet small when they hit. [b/] VERY GOOD POINT with this example.

If you don’t put him on a K then bet half pot as a value bet...again, fold to a raise. The pot is not large, no reason to over bet hoping to push off a better hand.

I was confused. I thought you meant 1/4 pot on flop. You mean on river. Gotcha. I agree, 1/4 to 1/2 pot river value bet. Here are the actual results:

Silly String: checks
megs3133: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Silly String: shows A Q (a pair of Queens)
megs3133: mucks hand 8 Q
Silly String collected $5.60 from pot

I freaked myself out with the possiblity of getting raise by a passive and having to drop my hand. I thought he liked the Q which being tight brought the 2 pair(QJ) into play. I also didn't think a worse hand would call a river bet. Since when is a semi-tight calling with Q8s? I guess she had the button. Now what do you think? Too weak?

Originally Posted by Silly String

Now what do you think? Too weak?

Nope, results don't change the reasons. I play it the same or maybe find a small river vaue bet. NH

Repping the flop would have eliminated any difficult decisions in this hand.

In any case, I don't see a whole lot of worse hands that are going to give you much value, I think a check/call is appropriate here.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Repping the flop would have eliminated any difficult decisions in this hand.

So whats your line if megs3133 calls the flop then raises the turn? Now you don't know if the K hit him or the Q.

Bet the flop

Against typical opponents a blocking bet is clearly called for on the river.

Heads-up you must auto-bet flops until given a good reason not to do so against a particular opponent. You want to win it when you miss and you can't check when you hit because it looks funny.

wow i thought he probably had a K playing it passively. I would bet the flop like others have said, if he is semi-tight and passive. On the river you have to bet something, and since he is not aggro, he probably won't come over the top unless he definately has you beat.

I might be the oddball here and say check the river. I don't see how a worse hand calls you. I can understand villian calling with Q8 on the turn, but I really don't think he calls a decent sized bet on the river with 2nd pair no kicker. Putting out a blocking bet will only scare off busted draws, hands that you want to bet into you, and I think it is very likely (ignoring results) that villian calls the turn with a straight or flush draw. Then again this is 25NL and anything's possible I guess. But yeah, like everyone else said, bet the flop. Rep that AK!

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

I might be the oddball here and say check the river. I don't see how a worse hand calls you.

There seems to be a trend in your posts of folding a lot and missing value. What game/stakes are you playing?

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

I might be the oddball here and say check the river. I don't see how a worse hand calls you.

There seems to be a tend in your posts of folding a lot and missing value. What game/stakes are you playing?

I multi-table 100NL. I don't see how I'm missing value here. You have a very marginal hand out of position, so why "value bet" here? What's wrong with taking a free showdown? Of course now that we know villian's cards a bet on the river was clearly the right move.

And in no way am I advocating folding this hand. Before looking at the results I had a hunch hero's hand was good, as I put villian on a busted draw. This leads to another point about blocking bets. Recently I have tended to not use them as much if I had a good read that villian had either air or a busted draw, because I could check and let villian bluff and get extra value out of the hand. Getting back to the hand, my initial read was that villian had a busted draw, so why not check and let him dig his own grave?

Lasty I don't know why you're picking on just me. There have been a few other posters in this topic that advocate checking the river. Maybe you can explain yourself more?

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

You have a very marginal hand out of position, so why "value bet" here? What's wrong with taking a free showdown?

Checking gives our opponent a license to take the pot away. A small bet will often get called by a worse hand by a weak player.

Originally Posted by bdawg56kg

Before looking at the results I had a hunch hero's hand was good, as I put villian on a busted draw.

Difficult to gather that with so much information. XY is too narrow of a range for my tastes. Then again, I would have put him to the test on the flop...

I'm with bdawg

I'd lean towards check calling that river. On the turn his likely range would be flush draw, straight draw (A10, J10) QJ Q10 AQ or maybe a weak K, as you will only get value out of one or two of these hands (Q10 maybe J10). Check calling is a safer option and also catches a possibe busted draw bluff, I can see a value bet getting raised here a lot of the time and their ain't no value in that.

Oh yes, and bet the flop

Check/calling the river into loose/passives is over-rated in limit hold'em too.

When making a river value decision based on what hands could call you, it's important not to take specific opponent out of the equation. I agree with Fnord. It's not what range of losing hands will call you. It's what range of losing hands THIS opponent will call you with.

As the opponent range opens up, so does the expected value of the correct decision to bet here. So I gather. You'll see what I mean when 77 calls a river value bet with 3 overs on the board, because he's loose and you didn't get extremely pushy.

I am resurrecting this thread to help me better understand something.
I can easily be described as weak post flop. It is easy for me to lay down big hands like AA, KK when I feel I am beat. I need to improve this as I have started playing the $50 tables which are all about aggression. The players don’t seem hugely better but they are anything but passive. I am going to leave a lot more value on the table than I did at the passive $25 tables.

I have slightly altered the HH. Everyone says you must rep the K on the flop. OK, so I get a call on the flop then hit my card on the turn. Now what? How do I know I am good? Do I just fold now? Do I just wing it on a hope and a prayer that he doesn’t have a K? I don’t get it.

Seat 3: megs3133 ($37.70 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($27.70 in chips)
nascarfan40: posts small blind $0.10
JayRen: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero: A Q
Hero: raises $0.75 to $1
megs3133: calls $1
nascarfan40: folds
JayRen: folds
*** FLOP *** 2 K 3
Hero: bets $1.50
megs3133: calls $1.50
*** TURN *** Q
Hero: ?

Value bet the turn and river
I found at 50nl and still do that too many players are willing to call the flop with absolutly nothing for some reason because they fear you have nothing. eg 77 calls the flop because they arent aggrressive enough to raise if they think you have nothing.
I still bet but keep showdown cheap unless i run into some strength

I often check/call that turn.

Good question EricE. I thought about it once, but forgot to ask it. Glad you didn't abandon the thread as fast as I did.
Fnord, how much are you willing to call on the turn? $5? Why go with a call, when you can bet out say $3.50 and control the size of the pot. Do you think you are going to get raised here by anything other than 2 pair(KQ)? I'm trying to understand the reasoning for giving up control of the hand.

If we check the turn and he checks behind we can probably find a small river bet for value.
I am not sure why we would check-call.
If he bets to our check he may be only betting into weakness, I guess. In that case we may still have the best hand.
On the other hand, if he bets to our check he may be betting his K.

So I guess our line might be to check, call small, fold to big bet.

But the question still stands. How much are we willing to call on the turn if the opponents bets after we check to him. Pot sized? More? Less? Let me hear ya now. . .

Originally Posted by Silly String

But the question still stands. How much are we willing to call on the turn if the opponents bets after we check to him. Pot sized? More? Less? Let me hear ya now. . .

I am not calling a pot bet on the turn. 1/2 pot maybe.