I didn't learn the first time...

Within the past week I've found myself in near identical situations. The first one I thought about for a while afterwards and concluded I did the right thing. After a repeat performance I'm doing a 180 and think I am playing this horribly wrong.

When entering a pot I've been min raising UTG or FI as of late to add some variety to my play. Although neither of those apply in this situation I expected a re-raise so felt comfortable with a min raise here.

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.25 NL (real money), hand #1,628,514,322
Table Texas City, 24 Dec 2005 03:45 PM

Seat 1: momse_52 ($9.40 in chips)
Seat 2: uncle arnie ($16.90 in chips)
Seat 3: riverraider1 ($24.55 in chips)
Seat 4: PKR__LGEND ($24.60 in chips)
Seat 5: alfil [AD,AH] ($25.80 in chips)
Seat 6: Barnekow ($11.60 in chips)
Seat 7: Swannster ($13.10 in chips)
Seat 8: catalystic97 ($18.70 in chips)
Seat 9: Herm0t0n ($18 in chips)
Seat 10: ILIS ($22.65 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
Herm0t0n posts blind ($0.15), ILIS posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
momse_52 folds, uncle arnie folds, riverraider1 calls $0.25, PKR__LGEND folds, alfil bets $0.50, Barnekow bets $0.75, Swannster folds, catalystic97 folds, Herm0t0n folds, ILIS calls $0.50, riverraider1 calls $0.50, alfil bets $2.50, Barnekow calls $2.25, ILIS folds, riverraider1 calls $2.25.

FLOP [board cards 6C,KC,3D ]

At this point it all goes down hill for me and this is where my big leak is with this type of flop OOP with what I feel to be the best hand yet a vulnerable one as well.

I'd like to induce my opponents into making some type of mistake but I find I'm trapping myself in a bad way. If I make a pot sized bet I've given 2-1 for the short stack to go all-in on a flush draw so they would be correct in doing so. Anything less gives them 4-1 or decent implied odds to go for the flush. Additionally I still have one more to worry about so assuming I'm not behind here which I don't believe I am, I'm looking at someone on the draw and someone who hit a pair but not knowing which order it might be in I feel like I am in a box. I want to protect my hand but I also would like to wreck their odds.

What strategy should be taken in a situation like this. The last time I had AKo and hit my A but there was a flush draw on the board and I found myself making a similar move post flop and suffering the same result.[/i]

Heads up against someone you are sure has the flush draw, and who you cant give the wrong drawing odds to, you could check and give a free card and then go allin on a non-flush turn. They will call with worse odds and you can get away from it on the turn if the flush comes.
Unfortunatly its pretty difficult to put them on the flush draw this soon and you have 1 more guy in the pot aswell. I think you just have to bet (probably around 2/3 pot) and if the shortstack pushes you call. On the plus side i find they have KQ, KJ, KT etc often enough to make up for them having and hitting the flush.

Full pot bet on flop.

You can't automatically assume someone has the flush draw when you have two opponents.

Checking and giving a free flush card is insane. Not only do you put yourself in a bad spot because you have effectively made up your mind that "If the flush comes, I'm in bad shape", but also, because IF the flush card comes on the turn, anyone with ONE of that suit is now a threat.

Maybe you can't give the others "bad enough odds". It does not matter. They are _already_ in a bad spot by calling your preflop raise with a vastly inferior hand. Do you want to give them infinite drawing odds?

Press the advantage. If you lose, you lose.

T.

A pot-sized bet is standard in that situation, BUT I even like doing something like 2.5x pot with aces. You will get King's to call, and if the flush does call there's nothing you can do, you did all you could to deter him from doing so, and over the long run, you will make money from him calling.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=25206

That post is ++.

Originally Posted by Telepath

Full pot bet on flop.

You can't automatically assume someone has the flush draw when you have two opponents.

Press the advantage. If you lose, you lose.

T.

I don't automatically assume, it's pretty much engrained at the level I'm playing at where any two sutied will do and Aces get cracked like eggs. I would have felt more confident if I held an Ac. I bet the pot, the small stack went all in, followed by a call. The turn was indeed a club, the only problem was figuring out who had the flush. I put in half my stack and riverraider pushed his. Suffice to say I lost my stack. Barnekow showed A6o and riverraider1 showed 78c.

At least that wasn't the worst of the lot. I also lost a stack later when my poket queens were taken down by 74o.

Originally Posted by Symbolic

A pot-sized bet is standard in that situation, BUT I even like doing something like 2.5x pot with aces.

In some ways I like this approach since it pretty much commits my whole stack while I have the best hand (assuming my read is correct). This way I'm punished immediately for a misread and if not I don't have to make a tough decision if another club does show up.

Additionally as a previous post suggested, I've induced them to make a mistake preflop. However, sometimes preflop mistakes becoming a blessing in disquise so while I may induce a flop mistake against one opponent I may not be able to do so for both so just jamming the pot and letting the cards fly seems sensible.

Originally Posted by Telepath

Checking and giving a free flush card is insane.

I don't have time to do the math right now, ill give it a go tomorrow but with the cards are face up and you with the best hand but cant give them the wrong drawing odds, (i.e. you push and they will call) Im pretty sure the most +EV play (or the least -EV play) is to check the flop and then either fold the turn to a flush turn or push to a non flush turn. This is because 2 cheap cards (if you are on a draw) are more valuble than 1 free card and 1 correctly priced card. Of course, it is unlikely you will be playing with the cards face up so this is just theory but im pretty sure it works. Ill do some EV calculations tomorrow, i gotta go out now.

I have posted this as its own topic in the stategy forum incase you want to comment so i dont hijack this thread.

Ok first off it think its pretty obvious that if you are going to be called anyway then you may as well wait a card to see if you are beaten before you bet. This is what counterplay is based on and its a strategy that works. First let me say that this is an extreme example but it is ment to illustrate a concept that could apply to less extreme situations.


The Maths

Situation:
All of the cards are face up.

Hero Holds: A K
Villain Holds: 7 8

Flop: K 5 6 || Pot Size $320

Villain has 9 diamond outs and 6 more straight outs for a total of 15 outs.

You have excactly 1/4 of the pot remaining in your stack so how ever you play it he is correct to call (getting 5:1).

Method 1

You could push allin as you don't want to give a free card.

Villain calls as he is getting the correct pot odds. We will assume the only way villain can win is by hitting the flush or straight. ( He also has runner runner outs but we ignore these as they dont affect the calculation much).

Chance of NOT making the flush on the turn

There are 15 cards left that complete the draw so there are 47-15 = 32 cards left that do not.
n or river.

chance of NOT making the flush on turn or river is:

32/47 * 32/46 = 512/1081


So the chance of the straight or flush coming is: 569/1081

So in 1081 trials,
569 times Hero loses $80. EV =( 569*-80)/1081 = - 42.109
512 times Hero wins $400. EV = (512*400)/1081 = 189.454

Total EV = 189.454 - 42.109 = 147.345


Method 2:

Hero checks flop then is allin on a non straight/flush turn. Hero folds if turn completes the draw.

In 2162 trials,
15/47= 690 times Hero folds the turn and wins 0. EV = 0
32/47 times hero is allin on the turn.

Of those 32 times:

15/46 = 480 times Hero loses $80. EV = -17.761
31/46 = 992 times Hero wins $400. EV = 183.534

Total EV = 183.534 - 17.761 = 165.773

So if your opponent will call you anyway whether you push the flop, or turn it is better to take a free card and make sure it isnt one of your opponents outs before you push. On this occasion he is making a mistake by GIVING YOU a free card as it is a free chance to get away from the hand.. The best way to think of it is that you have outs to the winning hand, but that your outs are all of the blanks.

Obviously this only applies completely when you are VERY short stacked and when you KNOW what your opponents cards are but it is something to be considered if you think your opponent has a lot of draws.

Well, that's the point, isn't it. The opponent isn't exactly going to show you he has a flush draw, but he may well bluff it.

T.