The joys of slow-play.

PokerStars Game #1634978899: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/05/04 - 03:17:32 (ET)
Table 'Athor' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: frankdfrog ($13.35 in chips)
Seat 2: Nimda8 ($62.70 in chips)
Seat 3: dsaxton ($70.15 in chips)
Seat 4: CrazySac ($46.25 in chips)
Seat 5: black pearl ($49.50 in chips)
Seat 6: ballplayerAA ($49.25 in chips)
Seat 7: vkiddv ($56.85 in chips)
Seat 8: BULLDOZA ($40.40 in chips)
Seat 9: kagreenie1 ($31.65 in chips)
dsaxton: posts small blind $0.25
CrazySac: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dsaxton [Jh 9d]
black pearl: folds
ballplayerAA: folds
vkiddv: folds
BULLDOZA: folds
kagreenie1: folds
frankdfrog: folds
Nimda8: folds
dsaxton: raises $1.50 to $2
CrazySac: raises $3 to $5
dsaxton: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [Ac 7s Th]
dsaxton: checks
CrazySac: checks
*** TURN *** [Ac 7s Th] [8c]
dsaxton: bets $8
CrazySac: raises $8 to $16
dsaxton: raises $49.15 to $65.15 and is all-in
CrazySac: calls $25.25 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Ac 7s Th 8c] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dsaxton: shows [Jh 9d] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
CrazySac: mucks hand
dsaxton collected $89.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $92.50 | Rake $3
Board [Ac 7s Th 8c 3s]
Seat 1: frankdfrog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Nimda8 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: dsaxton (small blind) showed [Jh 9d] and won ($89.50) with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 4: CrazySac (big blind) mucked [Ah As]
Seat 5: black pearl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ballplayerAA folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: vkiddv folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: BULLDOZA folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: kagreenie1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Wow, nice pot ...
btw: You call 6xBB pre-flop with J9o?

I assume that was because he had position.

Forgive me, but what part of checking a draw and then betting huge once you have a made hand is slowplay? Or were you saying he was an idiot for checking the flop?

Your ability to play marginal hands and make them pay off is impressive. Nice job.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Or were you saying he was an idiot for checking the flop?

BINGO-BANGO


The other dude hit a set of aces on the flop and CHECKED it in position. Then he got his ass handed to him on the turn when his opponent hit a straight. This is why I don't slow play sets anymore. Been burned too many times.

He was just being sarcastic with the title of this thread.

Yeah saxton, it seems like your game has improved a lot lately.. I thought I remember a thread a few weeks ago where you said you were just trying to play the cards and you were losing money or something.

Nice work

no, the best is how he lets you make your straight for free, and then rereaises you, and THEN calls your all in.

that guy slays me

Originally Posted by black666

Wow, nice pot ...
btw: You call 6xBB pre-flop with J9o?

It seems like a pretty loose call, but it was only $3 more, and I thought he was presenting me with nice implied odds given that he probably had a big pair. When he checked that flop I was almost sure he had A-A.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Forgive me, but what part of checking a draw and then betting huge once you have a made hand is slowplay? Or were you saying he was an idiot for checking the flop?

I was talking about him slow-playing top set.

that was a pretty lame check on his part... especially since he wouldnt let it go

I understand why he checked (thinks his hand is almost bulletproof and wants to make money on it), but given that his opponent was probably on high cards - I would think KQ is the most likely hand, if I didn't already know what dsaxton held - why give away a free draw to a probable four outer? Bet SOMETHING there, for god's sake. It's also an unbelievable place to check; you have position, your opponent just checked to you, and you re-raised before the flop? What possible reason could there be to check there unless you flopped a monster?

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Forgive me, but what part of checking a draw and then betting huge once you have a made hand is slowplay? Or were you saying he was an idiot for checking the flop?

I was talking about him slow-playing top set.

Yeah...got it. Finals. 3 hours sleep the last two days. Forgive me

Agreed. The only hand that is going to pay him off here is a lesser set, so he may as well lead out on the flop. Checking and taking the hand to the turn is just inviting too many potential problems.

I think I remember reading in Doyle's section in Super System 2 that, when you've flopped a set of aces, there is always a straight draw on the board.

I think of it like this, in order for there to be no straight draws, then there need to be 4 gaps between each card on the flop, and since aces are played as both high and low, the gaps would have to look like this, where the X's are the two non-ace flopped cards:

A - - - - X - - - - X - - - - A

There aren't enough ranks for this to ever be true (it requires 15 card rankings), so there's always a straight draw on any flop that includes an ace. The closest you can get is something like A, J, 6 (which allows straight draws for K-Q, K-10 and Q-10).

holy shit. i never even thought of that. you just revolutionized my game

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Agreed. The only hand that is going to pay him off here is a lesser set, so he may as well lead out on the flop. Checking and taking the hand to the turn is just inviting too many potential problems.

I think I remember reading in Doyle's section in Super System 2 that, when you've flopped a set of aces, there is always a straight draw on the board.

I think of it like this, in order for there to be no straight draws, then there need to be 4 gaps between each card on the flop, and since aces are played as both high and low, the gaps would have to look like this, where the X's are the two non-ace flopped cards:

A - - - - X - - - - X - - - - A

There aren't enough ranks for this to ever be true (it requires 15 card rankings), so there's always a straight draw on any flop that includes an ace. The closest you can get is something like A, J, 6.

A 8 8

pwnd.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Agreed. The only hand that is going to pay him off here is a lesser set, so he may as well lead out on the flop. Checking and taking the hand to the turn is just inviting too many potential problems.

I think I remember reading in Doyle's section in Super System 2 that, when you've flopped a set of aces, there is always a straight draw on the board.

I think of it like this, in order for there to be no straight draws, then there need to be 4 gaps between each card on the flop, and since aces are played as both high and low, the gaps would have to look like this, where the X's are the two non-ace flopped cards:

A - - - - X - - - - X - - - - A

There aren't enough ranks for this to ever be true (it requires 15 card rankings), so there's always a straight draw on any flop that includes an ace. The closest you can get is something like A, J, 6.

A 8 8

pwnd.

Well, ok, any non-paired flop.

Anyways, I said when you've flopped a set of aces, which assumes there's no pair on board.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Agreed. The only hand that is going to pay him off here is a lesser set, so he may as well lead out on the flop. Checking and taking the hand to the turn is just inviting too many potential problems.

I think I remember reading in Doyle's section in Super System 2 that, when you've flopped a set of aces, there is always a straight draw on the board.

I think of it like this, in order for there to be no straight draws, then there need to be 4 gaps between each card on the flop, and since aces are played as both high and low, the gaps would have to look like this, where the X's are the two non-ace flopped cards:

A - - - - X - - - - X - - - - A

There aren't enough ranks for this to ever be true (it requires 15 card rankings), so there's always a straight draw on any flop that includes an ace. The closest you can get is something like A, J, 6.

A 8 8

pwnd.

in that scenario you didnt flop a set, you flopped a boat, in which case, you are not worried about straights.

double pwned

Originally Posted by The_Cheat

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Agreed. The only hand that is going to pay him off here is a lesser set, so he may as well lead out on the flop. Checking and taking the hand to the turn is just inviting too many potential problems.

I think I remember reading in Doyle's section in Super System 2 that, when you've flopped a set of aces, there is always a straight draw on the board.

I think of it like this, in order for there to be no straight draws, then there need to be 4 gaps between each card on the flop, and since aces are played as both high and low, the gaps would have to look like this, where the X's are the two non-ace flopped cards:

A - - - - X - - - - X - - - - A

There aren't enough ranks for this to ever be true (it requires 15 card rankings), so there's always a straight draw on any flop that includes an ace. The closest you can get is something like A, J, 6.

A 8 8

pwnd.

in that scenario you didnt flop a set, you flopped a boat, in which case, you are not worried about straights.

double pwned

Yeah.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Well, ok, any non-paired flop.

Part of my point with that (the part that I totally didn't in any way voice or even hint at), was that you needn't fear the straight draw all the time. First off, if you're playing a typical player, you can dramatically narrow down the range of hands they might call preflop with. In this situation, A 3 9 isn't scarey at all (whereas playing you or Rippy, I'd be a bit fearful here).

Even on a flop of A J 6, where KQ (a likely calling hand) gets the draw, they have 4 outs to make it. If it doesn't come, you win. Even if it does, you have (1 + 3 + 3 + 3 =) 10 outs to your by-the-river boat (so about 40% to make it on the flop; 20% on the turn). You want to protect against a suckout, but it's not the dire need it seems like. A flop with connecting cards (like yours was) rather than the auto-gutshot is a bit more dangerous, since it offers them about twice the chance to make their draw. Either way, destroying odds here is easy...just play it right.

It's more of a theoretical rather point than something which you should worry much about in practical situations.

But anyways, I still almost never slow-play top set. My thinking is that even though the hand may not be vulnerable on the flop, it could very well be on the turn, and the backdoor drawing hands that I'd be giving the free look are the only hands which are likely to give me action as a result of a slow-play. The only hand that will pay you off here is a lesser set or overpair, and the way to get action from these hands, and to shut out backdoor draws, is by betting the flop. Additionally, this gives you the opportunity to lend credibility to your "continuation" bets, since you can comfortably come over the top of any check-raise or raise, and this sends an important message to the table.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

It's more of a theoretical rather point than something which you should worry much about in practical situations.

But anyways, I still almost never slow-play top set. My thinking is that even though the hand may not be vulnerable on the flop, it could very well be on the turn, and the backdoor drawing hands that I'd be giving the free look are the only hands which are likely to give me action as a result of a slow-play. The only hand that will pay you off here is a lesser set or overpair, and the way to get action from these hands, and to shut out backdoor draws, is by betting the flop. Additionally, this gives you the opportunity to lend credibility to your "continuation" bets, since you can comfortably come over the top of any check-raise or raise, and this sends an important message to the table.

sounds very good, I never put that much thought into a set of aces. I'll definitely play them like this from now on.