KK with entirely too many callers

I was fairly frightened when almost every one of the limpers called my preflop. The flop shouldn't have significantly helped anyone who stayed in, save if they were in late position playing for a set. The one guy who called my flop bet had previously called an all-in with A high, so after that I wasn't very worried.

Game #544783863: Texas Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1) - 2005/04/10 - 16:03:20 (GMT)
Table "Decidedly" Seat 5 is the button.
Seat 1: SMIVVY61 ($131.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Jones80 ($65 in chips)
Seat 4: sksk ($54.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Dewonfin ($28.50 in chips)
Seat 6: JeffreyGB ($39.50 in chips)
Seat 8: jesse2eye ($22.50 in chips)
Seat 9: fkourou ($53.25 in chips)
Seat 10: psychodad ($127.50 in chips)
JeffreyGB: posts small blind $0.50
jesse2eye: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to JeffreyGB [:Ks: :Kh:]
fkourou: calls $1
psychodad: folds
SMIVVY61: calls $1
Jones80: calls $1
sksk: calls $1
Dewonfin: folds
JeffreyGB: raises to $5
jesse2eye: folds
fkourou: calls $4
SMIVVY61: calls $4
Jones80: calls $4
sksk: calls $4
----- FLOP ----- [ :Td:]
JeffreyGB: bets $15
fkourou: folds
Pierrelk joins the table at seat #7
KingFry joins the table at seat #3
SMIVVY61: calls $15
Jones80: folds
sksk: folds
----- TURN ----- [ :Td:][]
JeffreyGB: bets $19.50 and is all-in
SMIVVY61: folds
Returned uncalled bets $19.50 to JeffreyGB
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $56 Main pot $53.25 Rake $2.75
Board [ :Td: ]
Seat 1: SMIVVY61 folded on the Turn
Seat 2: Jones80 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: sksk folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Dewonfin (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: JeffreyGB (small blind) showed [:Ks: :Kh:] and won ($53.25) with A Pair of Kings, Ten high
Seat 8: jesse2eye (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: fkourou folded on the Flop
Seat 10: psychodad folded before Flop (didn't bet)

In ring I wouldnt show your hands...

thats just me.. unless you were perceived crazy...

Wow. That is a lot of callers for a healthy raise. Glad it worked out in the end.

but, jeff;

good bet to force out the straight draw / flush draw I am presuming he was on..

On the flop.

Why bet 15?

-'rilla

On the flop.

Why bet 15?

-'rilla

There is 25 in the pot, right? Isn't 15 a pretty standard bet in this situation? Are you suggesting that he make a larger than pot size bet? I think he is committing himself to go all-in at this point anyway, probably just wants to get 1 caller along for the ride instead of pushing all in right away and getting no callers. I can't speak for Jeffrey, but it looks like 15 is a bet to maximize profits.

On the other hand, if someone has something like JJ and calls, then someone on a flush draw would be able to call also at that point. Is the correct play to overbet the pot when you don't have a big stack?

Originally Posted by Corey

In ring I wouldnt show your hands...

thats just me.. unless you were perceived crazy...

Typically, I agree. I was leaving the table anyway, felt like saying "good fold" just for the hell of it. And the way that table had played while I was there, I'd be amazed if a single one of them was taking notes.

Besides "bets big on KK" doesn't really tell them much when I'm leaving the site for a month or so.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

On the flop.

Why bet 15?

-'rilla

My thinking followed Lonnie's logic pretty well. What would you suggest instead?

Jeffrey, is $5 the normal raise in these games?

I find that I like to raise more from the blinds for 3 reasons:

1. I want to limit the number of limpers who call my raise. Some people are under the impression that if they put in $1, they should also put in $5.

2. I want to charge other hands for being in better position than me for all future betting rounds.

3. To some players, this will look more like a steal if you raise a larger amount. These players are more likely to try to steal the pot on the flop, giving you more money when you have/make a very good hand.
I think in this case, I would probably want to raise to $7 or $8. I'm not sure if this follows any normal NxBB sense ... but that's what I would do.

Every once in a while, this backfires and you get no callers when you would have gotten 1 or 2. Oh, well - at least you get the limper money.

I also would bet more at this flop. The pot is big enough for me that I want to take it down right now or find out if I am beaten. $15 seems borderline weak here, like maybe you missed your hand and are just trying to take the pot. I would always bet at least $20 and maybe $25.

Given that, I'm still fearful of the ass who called with J8s, 86s, 10-9s, or 97s. Sometimes that ass is me.

Originally Posted by lonnie

On the flop.

Why bet 15?

-'rilla

There is 25 in the pot, right? Isn't 15 a pretty standard bet in this situation? Are you suggesting that he make a larger than pot size bet? I think he is committing himself to go all-in at this point anyway, probably just wants to get 1 caller along for the ride instead of pushing all in right away and getting no callers. I can't speak for Jeffrey, but it looks like 15 is a bet to maximize profits.

On the other hand, if someone has something like JJ and calls, then someone on a flush draw would be able to call also at that point. Is the correct play to overbet the pot when you don't have a big stack?

15 was the right bet.

I wanted people to see why.

Draws can call incorrectly (Jeff doesn't have enough money behind him to make paying off a draw a very big mistake) as well as weaker hands.

If you push, JJ might not even call, but sets will.

-'rilla

Zangief, I've moved away from having an absolute standard raise. My raises are meant to accomplish one thing: get many people out of the pot while building it. To that end, I have a standard amount, which I add to as more limpers are in. Typical raise for me is $3 (totaling $4). $5 is actually less of an adjustment than I probably should have made...$6 or $7 seems likely a better choice, and in fact when talking about the hand in IRC, I mistakenly thought I'd raised it to $6. Still, this method preserves the "hiding my hand" aspect of it, which I think is important, while acheiving the other goals listed above.

And BTW, Zangief, do you really consider 2/3 the pot to be a weak bet, specifically when talking in terms of large pots?

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

And BTW, Zangief, do you really consider 2/3 the pot to be a weak bet, specifically when talking in terms of large pots?

Not that weak, but not completely strong, either.

I guess I sort of see the bet amounts like this (related to a $25 pot):

$5 - either very weak or slowplaying a monster, possibly asking for an aggressive player to reraise without a hand
$10 - weak (or slowplaying)
$15 - not too weak, not too strong
$20-25 - strong
$30-35+ - very strong - "i have 2 pair" or "i'm over-protecting against a flush draw" or "i have trips" or "i'm representing trips and want to know if anyone else actually has them"

Note that I'm just talking about the flop bet. I expect turn bets to go down slightly in relation to the pot size.

Also note that I don't bet less when I'm worried about a big hand that hit the flop. I just bet the same amount and if I'm beat, I'm beat. I don't want to show weakness that tricky players can exploit.

When I build a big pot with a lot of callers like this and then still have a strong hand after the flop, I want to make it absolutely clear that this pot is mine. I think I do that by betting very close to the pot size. I don't want anyone messing with me by minraising me without a hand.

I really just think $20 sends a clearer message than $15.

Of course, I could be totally off with this. This is really the first time I am putting these assumptions of mine into words. I'd like to hear other opinions.

Edit: You should also probably keep in mind that you're probably more of a winning player online than I am. I win consistently at the casino, but have been losing consistently online. I'm working on this, I think it is differences between my games. So take my advice with that large grain of salt.

What I've described has worked for me at casinos. Hands like these where eveyone and their mother calls and you take it down on the flop are quite profitable for me.

Man, I'm long-winded after a "beer bash" at work. Sorry, bub.

2. I want to charge other hands for being in better position than me for all future betting rounds.

Meaning you want to put more money in when you have shit for position during the postflop rounds, which actually matters more so than preflop. Maybe its just me, but Id rather not raise as much in a blind, due to position, not giving money away without position. You have KK so its not as big of a deal.

This seems weird to me... and the 3/4 pot sized bet is perfect, I dont think Id do any different. Overbetting the pot is pointless unless you can set a trap with it.

I really just think $20 sends a clearer message than $15.

Ummm, yeah...