KK RING DEEP STACK

ok im real tired of losing kings to aces preflop. i think i've got the worst of statistial deviance or something.

Preflop is raised to 3 in 50 NL. A strong bet. I re-raise 6. He re-raises me like 25 or something.

ALL IN OR FOLD?

yes, i was told to always push kings and i did and do every time. just curious. how many fish really are willing to push with less than AA KK QQ or AK? I guess if all of those push which probly wouldn't happen it would be profitable.

How deep are your stacks? If they are just normal, just push it, someone only has AA 1/25 times, there are plenty of fish pushing all kinds of crap in 50nl.

Know your player. If you dont know them, go ahead and push. If your gut feeling is really telling you to fold, then fold. If your gut is a bitch and it always tells you to fold, then just keep playing and experience will toughen him up.

Pushing with KK preflop can be profitable, but against a huge raise, you have to really consider what the opponent is holding. Just saying "what are the chances" to everything would be disaster. What are the chances that your opponents got dealt any two cards? If you think he's a solid player then fold and get his money later. If he just lost a big hand, sucks, you have no read, your gut says so, or you just feel like, then push!

what i don't understand is why you only re-raised $6 instead of $25 or AI. a bigger raise would have put the pressure on your opponent, instead of the other way around. then if he re-raises AI, you know he's got the rockets for sure. here, you still don't really know, and you kind of have no choice but to push and pray.

It is almost impossible for me to put down KK pre-flop. If I'm against aces then that's poker.

We've got tons of threads on this and I agree with Dan Harrington in his book.

About 1 of every 24 times you hold kings, someone else will hold aces. If you try to be savvy and figure out exactly when that is as opposed to when someone else is pushing QQ, AK, JJ, etc., you're just going to start making bad folds.

Short of an insane read or circumstance:

- live game and a puddle forms below them on the floor after they get their hand

- ring and the guy pushes preflop for $2,000 into your $15 raise

- one of those weird tournament situations we discuss endlessly where it's actually -EV to play KK since you get the same prize for 7th as for 1st, there are 8 guys left, and it's a 6-way all in.

I am ready to put all my chips in every single time preflop. It's easier on my brain and it's still heavily +EV from my experience.

Originally Posted by ChezJ

what i don't understand is why you only re-raised $6 instead of $25 or AI. a bigger raise would have put the pressure on your opponent, instead of the other way around. then if he re-raises AI, you know he's got the rockets for sure. here, you still don't really know, and you kind of have no choice but to push and pray.

I totally agree here, raise him more (i'd say $15 to $25) and put the pressure on him. Raising to $6 when he's raised to $3 really does nothing. Hey I might even push back with QQ or less in his place...

If u push right away you are probably just getting his $3 and the blinds and get called only by AA.

Only problem is if he pushes back you probably are up against AA and you already have half your stack in the middle.

All said, I am pushing anyday with KK.

Originally Posted by AvatarKava

About 1 of every 24 times you hold kings

Where did this number come from? For 10 player tables my sim figured just over 1 in 20.

Harrington on Hold Em - I didn't enumerate it personally.

pp241:

A lot of players will tell you stories about the times they folded kings because they know their opponent was raising with aces. Here's my story. About a year ago, a tight player in the BB raised me. I actually thought he had aces. I was in early position with a pair of kings. I made a modest raise and he reraised me. I thought a long time and called. The flop came three small cards, and he bet a modest amount and I called. He actually had the aces.

I almost threw the hand away, but I couldn't do it. Just not savvy enough. Even bets and raises that seem to indicate great strength can have a variety of explanations, from moderately strong hands to outright bluffs. And here's a little secret from the world of top-class poker. Nobody else is that savvy either, no matter what they tell you.

About one time in 24, when you hold kings at a full table, someone at the table will be holding aces. If you try to figure out when that occurs exactly, you'll end up folding a lot of hands when you're actually facing queens, or ace-king or something even weaker. So don't bother. Just play your kings like you have the best hand, and you'll do better in the long run. (Note that when you raise with your kings, get called by one or two players, and then an ace flops, it is a very different situation.)

The simple truth is that everyone remembers the times that their kings were beaten by aces, but they forget all the other times that they were afraid the other guy had aces, but he turned over jacks or queens instead.

Originally Posted by m3laNcholy

Originally Posted by ChezJ

what i don't understand is why you only re-raised $6 instead of $25 or AI. a bigger raise would have put the pressure on your opponent, instead of the other way around. then if he re-raises AI, you know he's got the rockets for sure. here, you still don't really know, and you kind of have no choice but to push and pray.

I totally agree here, raise him more (i'd say $15 to $25) and put the pressure on him. Raising to $6 when he's raised to $3 really does nothing. Hey I might even push back with QQ or less in his place...

If u push right away you are probably just getting his $3 and the blinds and get called only by AA.

Only problem is if he pushes back you probably are up against AA and you already have half your stack in the middle.

All said, I am pushing anyday with KK.

Because thats an outrageous raise and my goal isn't to take the pot down pre-flop, it's to get him to call, and then take it down at the flop. if an ace hits and he has AK so be it. I just raise to cut more people out of the action, not to shut him out.

once the pot becomes substantial, your goal should be to take it down immediately. milking it for more money is just inviting trouble.

from theory of poker, pg 68 (this is about AA but the concept also applies to KK): You've made a small raise, four of five people have called, and now someone puts in a substantial reraise. You must reraise again even if your play gives away your hand completely. It is worth dropping all disguise because as the pot gets larger and larger, what's in the pot right now counts more than potential bets on later rounds. With two aces you should put in all the bets you can.

Originally Posted by ChezJ

once the pot becomes substantial, your goal should be to take it down immediately. milking it for more money is just inviting trouble.

from theory of poker, pg 68 (this is about AA but the concept also applies to KK): You've made a small raise, four of five people have called, and now someone puts in a substantial reraise. You must reraise again even if your play gives away your hand completely. It is worth dropping all disguise because as the pot gets larger and larger, what's in the pot right now counts more than potential bets on later rounds. With two aces you should put in all the bets you can.

this is different IMO. small raise is kind of an opinion. 3 on a .50 big blind is a larger than normal, preflop raise. The standard is usually around 2 in an un-raised pot. No one else called it either. This says 4-5 callers.

So that means this pot has 3.75 in it. I still think just getting another call out of him preflop is best.