Laying down second to the nuts

How do you handle second hand to the nuts without a clear read?

Example 1: I have A3d in BB.

Flop comes down Q 3 A, I bet pot, one EP limper calls, turn is a 2, I bet 2/3 pot and limper calls. River is Ace I bet half pot, he goes all in. The only hand that beats me is AQ, but I think he would have reraised me on the flop? My read here is unclear. I called 1/3 remaining in my stack, $35.00, with $170.00 in the pot knowing that he could have AQ but unsure. It turned out he was holding QQ (yes he played it badly).

If you have no clear read and someone raises after you have made a large bet, does any one have a rough guide to the EV of always calling with second to the nuts?

The only time I'd lay down the second nuts is when I see the other players cards and know I'm beat.

Well if you have no reads on this guy I guess AQ could play the same as QQ on this board. However, I think AQ would have been more likely to raise you at some point before the river to see where his hand stands.

But personally for me, I'm a gambler and there's far too many other hands that think they're the best here besides AQ. I would want to get my whole stack in here.

Good call.

Any set could play that way. In this case, he waited until the A showed to push hoping you had made something big enough to call his push…or maybe he would have pushed on the river regardless. He was in EP so he might not have raised AQ PF. He didn’t reraise your flop bet but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have it. <shrug> It’s a tough call. That is why playing out of the BB is not recommended…because even when you do make a great hand, you don’t have the information you need to play it properly.

Edit: I missed that an A came on the river. Heck, any set would have trouble betting into that board on the river.

With 1 A on board and you betting, he should have re raised you on the flop and turn. When the 2nd A hit the board...He should have been able to get away from QQQ. Thats what makes it look like he's not holding QQ, 33, Q3...He played it badly. It's hard to put him on a set here, what else could he have? AQ is a possibility, but you have to pay it off. I still call putting him on Ax where x is unpaired so your boat wins, most of the time.

How can you say that QQ man played it badly?

He doesn't nkow that hero has two pair with the aces. For all he knows, hero is playing TPTK very strongly.

This is your dream when flopping a set; hanging hte other guy on trips with your FH.

I folded the second nuts once and was wrong.

A mistake I intend never to make again.

-'rilla

lost my money in a similar position with Q7 in the bb on a QT57Q board vs QT. and i dont regret it one bit.

" How can you say that QQ man played it badly? "

I have trouble not being sarcastic here...

but seriously,

mistakes:

1- no pre -flop raise with the third best hand in poker
I would almost never call a pre flop raise with A3 suited - so this hand never would have happened
2. no reraise on the flop, when he had second to the nuts at that point and it is unlikely he would have put me on AA with no preflop raise
3. and by far the stupidest mistake, he reraises me all in on the river with the 5th best possible hand.

The best possible hole cards were

1. AA (not possible cause I had an A but he didn't know that)
2. AQ
3. A3
4. A2
5. QQ

The correct play for him was to call. If he had stopped to consider the range of hands I could be holding, reraising me all in was moronic. If you are reraising a huge bet on the river with the fifth best possible hand you are playing badly

Are you freaking kidding me?

1) He was in EP, so limping with queens here can be understood from time to time; plus, he might be trying a limp-reraise. But if he was in EP, he doesn't always have to raise QQ.
2) Why would he reraise on the flop with second nuts at the time? If he's trying to trap you with an ace, then a raise would only give you a reason to bail on the hand.
3) He reraises you all in on the river when he thinks you only have AAA, probably with a good kicker. He can usually discount A2 and A3, and he can discount AA as well, as you probably would have raised preflop. That leaves AQ for him to worry about, and you might have pre-flop raised with that too; too bad you had A3.
For all he knows, you could have just gotten attached now with AJ or AK or AT, hands that you could easily limp with...hell, even A9s you would probably limp from far back.

I don't know why this is so open and shut with you; it's not as though this was a bad beat, but to say he played it horribly is not a fair assumption.

I think there is a significant difference between "horribly" and "badly".

Your logic is a little off. At one point towards the end you indicate, "he discounted you having AA" but then reverse that logic when arguing againt him reraising on the flop.

I'm almost done with this thread as it's turning into a waste of time, but I leave with you these thoughts:

1. I think most experienced players would judge that he played QQ badly as indicated in one of the other replies.

2. Do you think he played his hand well?

3. Would you reraise all in on the river after a 1/2 pot size bet with the fifth best hand?

( for example a 10 high flush when the board has no pair on it?)

4. If you would, is your screen name ensign-lee?

5. Do you play the NL games on Poker stars or PP?

Cheers

First, about my logic. I don't understand what you're talking about when you're talking about reraising the flop. He's trying to trap a pair of aces, and the perfect opportunity comes when an ace comes on the turn. There's no reason to reraise on the flop, because he might scare out someone with AJ and a pair of aces.

And as far as this thread turning into a waste of time, you came here for discussion, right? Why would start arguing with someone who's saying something different than you are.

1) With all due respect, there's one reply that says that they played it badly, and one reply (me) that said that he didn't play it that badly. I hardly think this can be counted as evidence of "most experienced players" agreeing with you.

2) Yeah; I do, as a matter of fact, because he's got a hidden full house, queens full of aces, and he can discount three of those hands that beat him.

3) If the fifth best hand was QQQAA, yes, I reraise all in all day long, because the actions of someone on AAA(kickers here) will probably play the exact same way.

4/5) My screen names are Lt_Lee and ewlee on Party Poker and associated skins. You can find me at NL $200 and occasionally at NL $400. Say hi if you drop by.

Next time you come to a discussion forum, you might consider actual discussion rather than simply attacking those who respond to your post.

"And as far as this thread turning into a waste of time, you came here for discussion, right? Why would start arguing with someone who's saying something different than you are. "

I came for advice on whether someone would ever lay down the second to the nuts. You brought up a secondary topic and seem intent on giving your advice about why he played the hand well. Obviously, we have a difference of opinion about the way he played his hand. That difference of opinion is a total waste of time becasue it's not going to be resolved and it's not going to help either of us be better players


"2) Yeah; I do, as a matter of fact, because he's got a hidden full house, queens full of aces, and he can discount three of those hands that beat him. "

Here is where you err . With no preflop raise, A2 suited and A3 suited are very viable hands. Reraising all in, all day long with the fifth best hand is going to get you smoked. Good luck with that leak.

As far as laying down second nuts goes, you shouldn't; everyone else said it, so I didn't feel the need to do so as well.

And obviously, we're not going to reconcile anything, so I'll see you around...or not