Let's talk through some 'purpose' of bet sizing...

Ok, this is hopefully a philosophical post about bet sizing pre-flop with high pocket pairs... We've seen a few posts lately about pocket pairs and how to play them against overpair flops, etc... but I'm working on some of the basics again to be sure I have them right.

Let's start with a simple example... KK preflop, and lets assume 9-handed table, with minimal reads on any of the players, so discount the reads a bit.

From what I've learned/read, I think the hand would play out this way, or should be played out this way...

With no calls or limps ahead, bet is pretty much 3-5xBB standard, all the way to Button. In SB, with no limpers ahead, raise to 3-5xBB or more, depending on aggression of the BB.

WIth limpers ahead you add in a BB per limper... with a bet ahead, you raise to 4x bet or depending on stack size, a shove might be in order...

So that all seems sensible, correct?

Now... if we assume all of that is sensible, what is our purpose of the bet/raise?

If we have limpers ahead, how does that affect our purpose?

If we have a better ahead, how does that affect our purpose of our bet?

What I'm getting at is, does our purpose include or exclude 'getting action', does our purpose include or exclude 'forcing folds', does our purpose include or exclude 'defining our hand'? I'd like to hear some more experienced players describe their 'purpose for betting/raising' in these situations and how they hope/desire the villians to respond.

Something that might also prove valuable in this point of pupose is to explain the overall goal, which is obviously to emerge from the hand with the best outcome (I won't say 'win the hand' because that is too vague)... so please get into what you expect the best outcome to be also...

I know, it is asking a lot but I want to delve deeper into why we do the things we do, not just because they are the right action...

Originally Posted by Monty3038

Now... if we assume all of that is sensible, what is our purpose of the bet/raise?

If we have limpers ahead, how does that affect our purpose?

If we have a better ahead, how does that affect our purpose of our bet?

What I'm getting at is, does our purpose include or exclude 'getting action', does our purpose include or exclude 'forcing folds', does our purpose include or exclude 'defining our hand'? I'd like to hear some more experienced players describe their 'purpose for betting/raising' in these situations and how they hope/desire the villians to respond.

Something that might also prove valuable in this point of pupose is to explain the overall goal, which is obviously to emerge from the hand with the best outcome (I won't say 'win the hand' because that is too vague)... so please get into what you expect the best outcome to be also...

I know, it is asking a lot but I want to delve deeper into why we do the things we do, not just because they are the right action...

Ok, so since I brought it up I'll try to answer in my own way first and then let you all tell me what is right/wrong with my way of thinking.

To me, the goal of any one hand is to extract value, coming out positive. Maximum value cannot be extracted from every hand, thus any hand coming out ahead is considered positive. This is my goal. While I would like to say my goal is to maximize each hand, I can't yet as I don't have the skills. Mainly I want to get money in the pot when I know or feel strongly that I'm ahead, and have many of those situations come out in my favor.

So now, on to the answer...

Betting into an unopened pot with a bet of 3-5xBB is my way of saying 'I have a pretty good hand and want to play it, want to join me?' The purpose I express with this bet is to invite others who feel they may have a playable hand to join in and see what happens. Often I will only express this purpose when I have a very strong hand and feel I can't be beat, but want them to join in so I can extract chips from them.

Increasing the size of the bet based upon limpers ahead leads me to the purpose of defining my hand slightly better than an opening bet... meaning that the limpers ahead are inidcating they want to see a cheap flop but I am showing that i hvae a hand already and it will cost them to see the flop. THis should discourage them to pursue it unless they feel 'lucky' or have a better hand they hand't lead on about...

(Now, with that limper ahead purpose posted, poses the question, shouldn't we limp behind them to 'trap' them or keep them in the pot?)

Raising someone's opening bet, or re-raising someone's raise is a clear statement that I'm ready to butt heads with you, This should be a clear indication that I don't think you have me beat and you'll need to improve... the purpose here is to clearly define my hand that I am way ahead now and you'll have to have excellent cards to beat me...

That should give you a little idea what I'm talking about... any one want to take a shot?

Most of my preflop raises are attempts to get myself into a situation where I can play a raised pot in position against 1-2 players, where they have more transparent ranges than me. If I have done my job then my range is too narrow for them to be continuing light too often, but too loose for them to just be check/folding all missed flops.

I tend to raise a standard 3x, +1 for any limpers. I find that this allows me more room to manouver postflop, while still building a big enough pot and usually folding out enough players. It also tends to be more likely to lead to a good setmining opportunity than a 4x standard open.

Adding a BB for every limper allows you to better isolate (or simply steal from) the limper. Again, this allows us to play a raised pot in position against a small # of villains.

I generally 3bet for value more than anything else. I have a good hand and want to play a big pot. my opp has a strong range that he won't be able to get away from easily, allowing me to build a big pot that he won't look far enough ahead to see coming, or will think he is strong enough to play in this spot.

Then you get to 3betting to defend your blinds/button, etc.

The answer is different in each of those situations. But it also depends on what hand you are playing, as well as the opponent. With a hand as strong as KK, you will be opening to build a pot with a strong hand (aka getting value). You will be raising over limpers for the same reason, but also at times to isolate them because they like to limp/call, and some hands just play better in a HU pot than in a multiway pot (big pairs). With such a hand, you would be reraising (3betting) some else's range for both of those reason: value, and isolating. If someone raises UTG, and you just call, then that invites more calls, or even a squeeze attempt (which with KKs you would welcome, but with some hands you wouldn't).

With weaker hands, you could be raising for different reasons, and depending on the strength of the hand you usually are. Sometimes you open because you are in spot to steal the blinds (late position). Sometimes you raise limpers with marginal hands because they like to limp/fold, or limp/call, check/fold. And sometimes you take those marginal hands are 3bet because that person folds often to 3bs. So with weaker hands you sometimes play them in the same way you would play a stronger hand, but for a different reason, namely bluffing or exploitation.

And how you value a hand generaly depends on your opponent as well. For instance, against some opponents you are willing to raise their open with hands like JJ/QQ, and call if they shove because they play so loose. While others if you 3b JJ/QQ and they 4b you would have to fold, so instead of going that route you elect to just call, because against their 3b calling range, or 4betting range you aren't doing too well (think of them as nits).

So I believe it all depends on what hand you hold and your opponents as to why you are making a move. But you are always doing it because you believe it is the most +ev play possible. If you believe you have the best hand, then it's for value. If you don't think you have the best hand, but they will fold often enough then it's as a bluff (exploiting their tendencies).

Hope that helps

The answer is different in each of those situations. But it also depends on what hand you are playing, as well as the opponent. With a hand as strong as KK, you will be opening to build a pot with a strong hand (aka getting value). You will be raising over limpers for the same reason, but also at times to isolate them because they like to limp/call, and some hands just play better in a HU pot than in a multiway pot (big pairs). With such a hand, you would be reraising (3betting) some else's range for both of those reason: value, and isolating. If someone raises UTG, and you just call, then that invites more calls, or even a squeeze attempt (which with KKs you would welcome, but with some hands you wouldn't).

With weaker hands, you could be raising for different reasons, and depending on the strength of the hand you usually are. Sometimes you open because you are in spot to steal the blinds (late position). Sometimes you raise limpers with marginal hands because they like to limp/fold, or limp/call, check/fold. And sometimes you take those marginal hands are 3bet because that person folds often to 3bs. So with weaker hands you sometimes play them in the same way you would play a stronger hand, but for a different reason, namely bluffing or exploitation.

And how you value a hand generaly depends on your opponent as well. For instance, against some opponents you are willing to raise their open with hands like JJ/QQ, and call if they shove because they play so loose. While others if you 3b JJ/QQ and they 4b you would have to fold, so instead of going that route you elect to just call, because against their 3b calling range, or 4betting range you aren't doing too well (think of them as nits).

So I believe it all depends on what hand you hold and your opponents as to why you are making a move. But you are always doing it because you believe it is the most +ev play possible. If you believe you have the best hand, then it's for value. If you don't think you have the best hand, but they will fold often enough then it's as a bluff (exploiting their tendencies).

Hope that helps

Stacks, thanks for the responses, but I'm still working a level or two below you at this point. If I can't put them on a range, or too wide a range because I don't have a read... I'm still in a world of hurt with these hands... heck, with any hand for that matter.

This all stems from the QQ with overcard appearing on the flop thread... where I know it is situational dependent...

I'm a little stuck on the 3bet thing too... I think the reference to 3betting may be confusing me too much, let me go re-read the 3-bet theory again, since I rarely see a bet/raise in micro stakes, I don't think I'm getting to a '3 bet' arena...

Read and make sure you understand the concept of ABCD theorem as well, as that will help alot with determining how your hand stacks up against another's range (determined by their actions).

That's the problem, sometimes these theorems sound good, but you get them out in practice and they are hard to implement/understand. I'll search for it again.