Min-Raising -- Why?

I've never understood why people min-raise in NLHE. What are you trying to do, build the pot? Are you trying to scare someone off with your 2x's BB raise? I was at a table earlier that had min-raise-itis. Not only that, but people would min-raise and then call huge raises with (I'm assuming), crap. On the hand I'm about to show you I took advantage of a min-raise situation. If I took the pot down preflop, cool. On the flop? Even better. On the turn my hand was made and I knew that if I got a call, all the chips were coming towards me. I was ahead the entire way in this hand...

This is NL100. I had seen this guy buy a bunch of pots using this min-raise B.S. People would call, he'd raise almost any flop and take it down right then and there. Finally somebody stood up to him and took a huge chunk out of him.

BTW, depending on the game I will limp JJ from EP.

Ultimate George ($102.50)
Min-raise Retard ($159.65)

Cards Dealt to Ultimate George :Js: :Jh:

UTG calls $1, Ultimate George calls $1, Min-Raise retard raises to $2, CO calls $2, BB calls $2, UTG calls $2, Ultimate George raises to $13, Min-Raise Retard calls $13, CO folds, BB folds, UTG folds. Pot = $32.50

Flop :Qs: :Td:

Ultimate George raises $23, Min-Raise Retard calls $23. Pot = $78.50

Okay, so I flopped a OESD. The queen doesn't scare me much, but it puts a little worry in me. I'm repping it like the Q doesn't scare me, and will gladly rep the turn if it's a non-scare card (A or K).

Turn

Ultimate George raises $66.50 and is all-in, Min-Raise Retard calls $66.50. Pot = $211.50

River :Ah:

Ultimate George shows :Js: :Jh: for a straight, Queen high
Min-Raise Retard shows for two pair, 8's and 9's

Ultimate George wins $208.50 from the main pot.

So I got lucky to get paid off so huge on this hand...but seriously, what was this guy thinking? He can't think he's ahead preflop. On the flop? Okay, you've got a pair and a gutshot, but I'm representing a high pocket pair. Why call a 3/4 pot bet there? The turn card was a good one for me, it made my hand and "made" his hand. So I got paid off.

I dunno what I'm trying to say here...but min-raising is stupid. I can't think of one good reason to do it in NLHE. I understand why you'd want to build a pot preflop in LHE in certain situations, but I can't see this as a profitable move in a deep-stack NL game. Any thoughts?

Min-raising can allow you to take initative and freeze weak players.

However, the fish do it because it's a one button deal and if others are doing it then it must be correct...

Serial post-flop min-raisers are fun because you can make 1/4 and 1/3 pot blocking bets into them on a draw knowing you get fold equity and will almost never get priced out.

it's all good untill there is a 9 on the river.

Originally Posted by TalentedTom

it's all good untill there is a 9 on the river.

That's why I got my money in before the river. Get my money in while I'm ahead and let the cards fall where they may.

Minraising preflop is kinda silly, but on the other steets it can be effective.

OK on this subject... here's something i find happening from time to time. I know that this is weak play, it doesnt happen all the time, but often enough to make me comment...

Hero dealt a playable but not monster hand... say AT in Button. Raises 4xBB. Gets 1 caller from the BB.

Flop misses but has danger card(s)... say a Q or a K in this instance. Cards that people in the BB will often play

Opposition minraises. I call, getting 7:1 odds

Turn is a whatever. Opp minraises. I think "i'm probably beat here but... i'm getting like... 9:1odds now" and call

River is a blank. Opp minraises. I think "i'm still beat here but i'm getting 10:1 odds now" and call
Lose with A high to a pair of Ks. or worse, a pair of 5s or something.

Now, more aggression might have knocked him off the pot, or it might not (people love to call) but my point is... are all these calls of minraises +EV? On the river you're getting 10:1 pot odds... but... i cant figure out if my unpaired ace will win even one in ten times.

I know this is piss weak play so dont lecture me about raising. I am plenty aggressive.

Is this a good way to get the best possible odds to win against a poor player?
Should I fold after not improving the river, despite getting 10:1 odds?

Its basically limit poker on a NL table I guess. And I should go read the limit section of Super/System. Or raise.

I think I min raised by accident one time. You know, you run to the bathroom, do the delux super speed taky outy, wash your hands and split back to the computer to find AA and 2 seconds to act. 7 callers. Noooooo! AA7 flop. I CHECK.

You have time to wash your hands?

Nah, for real though. I don't believe these calls are EV+. If you want to win the pot, you need to take a shot at raising him(but he must be capable of folding). If not cut bait and fold.
I also don't understand your betting in this hand. How are you getting 7:1 odds. I am assuming you are only betting 2BB into a pot of 8BB and he minraises to 4BB? If you make a weak 1/4 of the pot bet like that, I expect to be played back at quite a bit. Even with 3rd pair and a weak draw. You are setting yourself up for failure. How do you walk into being check-raised 3 times. Am I missing something?

PS. I found a min-raise situation I like: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=24076

[puts on hat]

I HATE HABITUAL PRE AND POST FLOP MINRAISERS

[/takes off hat]

I bet $1.50 on the flop into a $2-3 pot depending, they raise to $3...I'm getting like 4-to-1 on my money...I'm not going to fold unless I have utter junk or a great read...but I love hearing them whine..."you called my reraise with that?!"

the fish mini raise coz thats the 'raise' button it gives great odds to us but they dont know that. Often its also how people play hands like suited conncectors or AJ in full ring. They're too pusy to raise properly but dont want to limp incase an ace flops (duh!)
then theres the classic mini raise at lower limits with a pp. Build a pot they say, even though they min raise get a tble of callers ten pot the flop ony to be put all in on the turn and call way behind.
Its bad play by bad players

the fish mini raise coz thats the 'raise' button it gives great odds to us but they dont know that. Often its also how people play hands like suited conncectors or AJ in full ring. They're too pusy to raise properly but dont want to limp incase an ace flops (duh!)
then theres the classic mini raise at lower limits with a pp. Build a pot they say, even though they min raise get a tble of callers ten pot the flop ony to be put all in on the turn and call way behind.
Its bad play by bad players

I was assuming a 4xBB raise (a proper raise), so on the flop you have SB + 8 BB.

Raise of 1 BB means you have to call 1 to win 9.5. Thats changed since last time i wrote it.........

Anyway blah blah.... all this is assuming i have missed my flop completely, he's hit it in the form of TP no kicker... thinks his hand is good but is a donk and keeps minimum betting

My options are:
1) Raise. I'm ignoring this at the moment. Let's just say i KNOW i will be called unless i get crazy and overbet bluff, and even then i might get called. Risk = big.
2) Fold. So despite my massive odds and overcard, i am giving up? This might be +EV, but i don't know (thats the point)
3) Call. I only need to catch an ace, or even better runner runner tens, or runner runner JQ to win. I tend to do this, but have a feeling it is a (tiny) leak. You'd be getting 13.5 : 1 here... so you only need to be beating him once in a blue moon to break even... but when is ace high ever winning this?

This post is dragging on like many of mine do, but the questions are simple:

Q1) opp probably has a pair, you have 1 overcard, he minbets on every street. Do you call to the river?

Q2) opp has minbet to the river, you have ace high and he minbets again. Do you call "because the odds demand it"?

waaaiiiiitttt.... is a minimum bet 1xBB or 2xBB? i am sure it is 0.5 on my .25/.5 table... but i might be a spack

I play 25NL and I find that you have to be careful with minraiseers.

Most don't know or are afraid to raise the proper amount and they will min raise with AK,AQ, high PPs etc. With AA,KK,QQ they will sometimes double it.

So I find myself playing these guys carefully. I have been busted too many times tying to push them off or thinking they don't have a hand, they "slow play" without even knowing it.

I have run across the following alot lately and it usually means they have hit a monster and are not trying to buy the pot.

PF........ Min Raise
Flop .... Min bet pot
Turn.... Min bet pot
RIver ... All In or like 3x pot!!! Wierd!!!

Ive found min raises to be effective in getting the small blind and the big blind out of pots preflop, without the min raise small blind usually limp and from time to time they hit and youre dead...
I only min raise as an attempt to minimize the field and usually only do it in position and never with stron hands. Another advantage if youre in position and min raise is that the field usually check back to you on the flop which allows you to either steal or take a free card, this is how it works for med at 0.25/0.50 NL anyways...

Hey, you guys ever make wierd re raises or bets.

I've done it sometimes at a table with lots of min raisers or if there are some real asssholes around.

Betting like $1.99 or $0.79. etc. the stacks on the screen are really tall and are usually pruple and blue. when everybody calls it looks prettty funny. Most guys dont even blink or comment on it even if you keep doing it.

Another nasty trick to pull on an table coach or ass hole is to put him all in with the nuts and leave them like $1.00 . They usually just call and forget to push the last dollar.

Originally Posted by Silent7

I know this is piss weak play so dont lecture me about raising. I am plenty aggressive.

Is this a good way to get the best possible odds to win against a poor player?
Should I fold after not improving the river, despite getting 10:1 odds?

Its basically limit poker on a NL table I guess. And I should go read the limit section of Super/System. Or raise.

I'm not going to lecture you about this, but I'm still going to make a few comments. You say this is basically "a limit play on a NL table." That's not the mindset to have in a freaking NL game. It's called NO LIMIT for a reason. So you bet 4x's the BB on the button and get the BB to call you. He min-raises the flop. What exactly is he saying her with this min-raise? He's saying one of two things. Either, "I've got a monster here," or, "That flop hit me. Did it hit you? Do you have a very good hand like you said you did?"

If you just *call* his min-raise you are effectively saying, "No, that flop didn't hit me but I still have a few outs so I will just call your min-raise retard bet." He does it again, and *again* you just call his min-raise retard bet. What is the point of this?

You took the lead preflop, you started the aggression...answer his freaking question by folding (not my choice), or with "MY HAND IS BETTER THAN YOUR HAND," and raise him hard, maybe 3/4's the pot. Now if he just calls, or worse, he reraises, you slow down. Maybe he's got a monster, maybe he doesn't believe that you have a good hand. Whatever. But more than likely, he'll fold. He's probably playing something like K50 and has kicker issues.

Either fold on the flop or jam it back at him, give him a tough decision to make whether he wants to continue or not. Otherwise you're just pissing away money with A-high.

I see this all the time from UTG'ish players as well. Say I have AQ in late position. I raise to 5x's the BB, get two callers. The flop is all blanks. The UTG'ish player will throw out a weak bet, either because he hit a piece of the weak flop or is trying to throw out a "blocking bet" so he gets proper odds on hitting his flush/straight (if you just CALL). Instead of saying, "OMG I didn't hit an A or Q, I can't raise," *reraise* his ass hard, telling him, effectively, "I have a huge hand." If he has a monster, or has you beat, he'll let you know. More than likely you'll scoop the pot when he folds.

EDIT: You need to think about what your opponents are thinking. They're thinking, "You know, this guy raised in late position. He might just be making a move on the blinds, or might be raising crap in late position because a continuation bet will probably take the flop down if I miss." I will agree that there are certain times where you *don't* want to continuation bet on a flop, but this doesn't sound like one of them. Continuation bet it, tell them you have a good hand, and as I said before...watch them fold. Make them believe that you have a good hand. Even if YOU don't, they can't call because THEY DON'T EITHER.

You mean this?

_Vrax_:[Qs Qh]
Donk: [x x]

Donk: Call $0.25
...
Vrax: Raise $1.25
Donk: Call $1.00

Pot: $4
Flop: Jd 7c 3h

Donk: Bet $0.25
Vrax: Raise $3
Donk: Call $2.75

Turn: 2d

Donk: Bet $0.25
Vrax: Raise $5
Donk: Call $4.75

River: Ac

Donk: Bet $0.25
Vrax: Call $0.25

Vrax shows pair of Queens. [Qs Qh].
Donk shows pair of Jacks [Js 5d]

OR:

Donk [x x] (SB)

some limps, donk completes.

Flop JTT checks around.

Turn Q checks around

River Q checks around to donk who bets 0.25, gets called. Donk shows quad tens.

Originally Posted by Triptan3s

Minraising preflop is kinda silly, but on the other steets it can be effective.

If I bet the turn with my overpair and it gets minraised, it scares the hell out of me. It's minimum raise but it's still 2x my bet which is pretty big chunk of chips.

Minraising preflop? LOL it's like limping, but with piddling away 2 blinds not 1.

Depends on amount of initial bet.