Need help! Did I deserve to go broke here?

This is EXACTLY what has been happening to me all day long

I knew he didnt have a set, because he wouldnt have just flat called 1st to act against my bet. I put him on top pair or a draw and was trying to get him out.

Its this sort of shit that is causing me to lose money

***** Hand History for Game 2888494144 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, October 16, 22:57:14 EDT 2005
Table Table 68765 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: MORRISON2U ( $51.55 )
Seat 2: lcbeast ( $23.35 )
Seat 3: KennyBruin ( $89.20 )
Seat 4: PikkPokket ( $58.60 )
Seat 6: WLJ63 ( $95.50 )
Seat 7: send_the_msg ( $69.20 )
Seat 8: miketheflush ( $70.95 )
Seat 10: BlackEcstasy ( $49.50 )
Seat 9: igotnext ( $35.45 )
Seat 5: yoman691 ( $49.50 )
yoman691 posts small blind [$0.25].
WLJ63 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BlackEcstasy [ Qd Qs ]
send_the_msg folds.
miketheflush calls [$0.50].
igotnext folds.
BlackEcstasy raises [$2].
MORRISON2U calls [$2].
lcbeast folds.
KennyBruin calls [$2].
PikkPokket folds.
yoman691 folds.
WLJ63 folds.
miketheflush calls [$1.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, Tc, 5c ]
miketheflush checks.
BlackEcstasy bets [$6].
MORRISON2U calls [$6].
KennyBruin folds.
miketheflush folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]
BlackEcstasy bets [$20].
MORRISON2U raises [$40].
BlackEcstasy is all-In [$21.50]
MORRISON2U calls [$1.50].
** Dealing River ** [ 2d ]
MORRISON2U shows [ Ah, Td ] three of a kind, tens.
BlackEcstasy doesn't show [ Qd, Qs ] two pairs, queens and tens.
MORRISON2U wins $100.75 from the main pot with three of a kind, tens.

Originally Posted by spino1i

** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, Tc, 5c ]
miketheflush checks.
BlackEcstasy bets [$6].
MORRISON2U calls [$6].
KennyBruin folds.
miketheflush folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]
BlackEcstasy bets [$20].
MORRISON2U raises [$40].

The key to this whole hand was your $6 flop bet. Ask yourself why you made this bet, and what your opponent thinks of it on a JT flop. Top pair of jacks is a vulnerable hand. If you lead out $6 into and $8 pot, there's a good chance your opponent will not put you on the jack. Of course the mistake he made is not puting you on an overpair, but it's not terrible that he thought his pair of tens were ahead here.

You made the $6 bet because you wanted action. Your goal wasn't to take it down right there. Your goal was to get your opponent to pay incorrectly or even feel ahead. You were trapping. Based on that, you must then put your opponent on possibilities. You leave yourself open to a wider range. Every time you decieve, your opponents range opens up. That's why you do it, but it's a blessing and a consequence. You extract money from a hand that's behind, but you allow 4th and 5th street to fall. Whenever you allow extra cards to call, make sure your read is tight.

I think you can see now, why it was your job to put your opponent on tens, and you failed to even consider it. You failed to form that tight read you needed. Every one of your preflop and flop choices effect the choices on later streets. When you make a choice to allow your opponents range to open up, you have to believe there are now more cards out there that can beat you.

$6 into an $8 pot isn't a weak bet and its not the key to the hand. Getting another almost pot bet on the turn minraised is.

Originally Posted by arkana

$6 into an $8 pot isn't a weak bet and its not the key to the hand. Getting another almost pot bet on the turn minraised is.

In order to get minraised on the turn, the opponent had to stick around with a ten on the flop. Why did the opponent stick around with a pair of tens on the flop in your opinion? Do you feel the opponent thought a pair of tens was the best hand? If so why? If not why?

As for $6 into an $8 pot not being weak, it depends on who's making the bet, but YES, in most cases an underbet indicates weakness. Most of the time, you can push this person off their hand. I guarantee that. I do it constantly. If I see someone does it no matter what, I rape them all day long by either bullying or letting them lay me odds to draw out when others are in the hand.

More people bet the pot amount when confident on the flop than you think. Anyone who routinely bets 3/4 pot continuation every time is acting like a robot. I do not condone the 3/4 pot thing until you play against VERY solid competition, say at the WSOP.

I understand your argument but I don't agree that your average opponent will view the $6 bet as a weak bet (which will cause him to stick around with weaker hands). Its 3/4 of the pot, how is that weak? Someone who is calling $6 on that flop will most likely call $8 too. If the bet was $4 or less then I totally agree with you.

Its $50 NL, loads of players call with middle pair and overcard even if you bet pot.

Originally Posted by arkana

I understand your argument but I don't agree that your average opponent will view the $6 bet as a weak bet (which will cause him to stick around with weaker hands). Its 3/4 of the pot, how is that weak? Someone who is calling $6 on that flop will most likely call $8 too. If the bet was $4 or less then I totally agree with you.

Its $50 NL, loads of players call with middle pair and overcard even if you bet pot.

I also understand your arguement. A $6 bet into an $8 pot will not be seen as absolutely weak, but instead percieved by the opponent as "possibly" weak more than anything, hence the flop call and not check raise. This makes them think that AT is possibly ahead. I think a lot of people follow that line in this position.

You're going to get more calls with second pair betting 3/4 rather than full. There's a reason for it. It's because betting 3/4 doesn't erase the shadow of a doubt.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

As for $6 into an $8 pot not being weak, it depends on who's making the bet, but YES, in most cases an underbet indicates weakness. Most of the time, you can push this person off their hand. I guarantee that. I do it constantly. If I see someone does it no matter what, I rape them all day long by either bullying or letting them lay me odds to draw out when others are in the hand.

More people bet the pot amount when confident on the flop than you think. Anyone who routinely bets 3/4 pot continuation every time is acting like a robot. I do not condone the 3/4 pot thing until you play against VERY solid competition, say at the WSOP.

Well I frequently bet 3/4 pot and it doesn't have anything to do with my hand strength (with continuation bets and with the nuts). It depends more on the number of opponents in the hand and the board. So you can try and bully me around if you feel Im weak, but my bet size doesn't give you information on whether or not I have the goods.

Originally Posted by arkana

Originally Posted by Rondavu

As for $6 into an $8 pot not being weak, it depends on who's making the bet, but YES, in most cases an underbet indicates weakness. Most of the time, you can push this person off their hand. I guarantee that. I do it constantly. If I see someone does it no matter what, I rape them all day long by either bullying or letting them lay me odds to draw out when others are in the hand.

More people bet the pot amount when confident on the flop than you think. Anyone who routinely bets 3/4 pot continuation every time is acting like a robot. I do not condone the 3/4 pot thing until you play against VERY solid competition, say at the WSOP.

Well I frequently bet 3/4 pot and it doesn't have anything to do with my hand strength (with continuation bets and with the nuts). It depends more on the number of opponents in the hand and the board. So you can try and bully me around if you feel Im weak, but my bet size doesn't give you information on whether or not I have the goods.

That's an excellent point, and that's what makes you a unique read. If I were at a table with you I would adjust myself to it. I would write a note that says "Slightly underbets with best hand." The thing you have to remember is that the majority of people playing poker don't visit FTR or read books on the subject. They have no idea that 3/4 pot bets on the flop are a good idea for a standard. Most opponents who bet 3/4 pot are actually weak. It doesn't mean they visit forums or read Harrington. Not you, but most of THEM. You see what I mean? I would form a read on you within a few hands, and play differently against you. I would play others at the table exactly as I always do. Their 3/4 pot bet means something entirely different than yours in most cases.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

That's an excellent point, and that's what makes you a unique read. If I were at a table with you I would adjust myself to it. I would write a note that says "Slightly underbets with best hand." The thing you have to remember is that the majority of people playing poker don't visit FTR or read books on the subject. They have no idea that 3/4 pot bets on the flop are a good idea for a standard. Most opponents who bet 3/4 pot are actually weak. It doesn't mean they visit forums or read Harrington. Not you, but most of THEM. You see what I mean? I would form a read on you within a few hands, and play differently against you. I would play others at the table exactly as I always do. Their 3/4 pot bet means something entirely different than yours in most cases.

Fair enough

But for the sake of being argumentative I still don't think the majority of players interpret a 3/4 bet as being weak. A poll is what we need to find the truth... I will let you do the honours.

I vote fishes can TELL the difference between a 6 dollar bet and 8 dollar bet because they don't look at the pot size ANYWAY.

Originally Posted by arkana

But for the sake of being argumentative I still don't think the majority of players interpret a 3/4 bet as being weak. A poll is what we need to find the truth... I will let you do the honours.

I don't think the majority of players are paying too much attention at all. Therefore I agree. All players have to assess whether their hand is best regardless of their skill level however. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the person with AT was an average to below average player. What drives him to make choices? I think your point of view is that even if the hero bet $8 on the flop, the villain would call with AT because the villain is a weak player. That could very well be the case here. I wasn't at the table with a read. If however, the player was a little bit better (I'm really splitting hairs here), then they will fold to an $8 bet, and call a $6 bet feeling there's a chance they may be ahead.

Essentially my point is that if you bet 3/4 pot (more value, more chasers, less committment), you should expect second pair to call more often than if you continue for a full pot amount (more protection, defined representation, better read, more committment). You should then be weary if second pair pairs the board, such as it did in this case. A 3/4 bettor should incorporate second pair more on the flop as part of their read package.