Open-ended Straight Flush draw...tell me what you do.

Pacific Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.12/$0.25
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is Button with :Ts:
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2, folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises to $1.75, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds.

Flop: ($5.87, 3 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.5, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $5, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: ($15.87, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $27.48, Hero ???

Do you call this bet or fold?

Results in white here:

[color=white]Turn: qs ($15.87, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $27.48, Hero calls.

River: 9h ($70.83, 2 players)

Results:
Final pot: $70.83

Ya did your thing on the flop, he called then blew you out of the pot then you called anyway out of spite.

His pair is good.

You're getting 1.6:1 for your money. You need to be at least 39-61 to break even (which you're not). Fold.

No gambol.

Pretty easy fold. By the way this

UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2, folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises to $1.75

especially when followed by this

UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls

is gonna be -EV most of the time, when you are holding JT. By the time it gets to your flop raise, this is dangerously close to spew. You've ended up, by that point, committing $7 to a marginal hand that flopped a marginal draw; and it ended up costing you your stack when you turned a real draw and you made an interesting decision. I know it's all fashionable to run over the table, but I would much prefer to limp along here and try to make a strong hand vs. trying to steal a small pot with mediocre cards.

...but raising is FUN!

Originally Posted by Fnord

...but raising is FUN!

And fun is +EV! Ignore my previous post, I've been corrected.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Originally Posted by Fnord

...but raising is FUN!

And fun is +EV! Ignore my previous post, I've been corrected.

Meh, I really don't think we know enough to say much. He flipped the spew bit for better or worse, got stood up to and made a sucker turn call.

I think the better lesson is knowing when the cops are about to bust down the door and sneak out the back.

I dont like the turn call, but preflop I dont really see a problem with raising JTs from the button even with a couple limpers. Id rather have <2 but I still dont think preflop is -EV. Postflop isnt great, but if you are raising preflop and then a limper bets into you on the flop incredibly weakly a raise will often take down the pot right there. This is fairly read dependent, but it isnt always bad.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Meh, I really don't think we know enough to say much. He flipped the spew bit for better or worse, got stood up to and made a sucker turn call.

I think the better lesson is knowing when the cops are about to bust down the door and sneak out the back.

No argument. And you're right, table texture and reads mean something here, and you can make some meta-game arguments that might change my mind. Personally I just believe there's more money to be made hitting big hands against a few bad opponents than stealing small pots against the same bad opponents. Make that bad, loose opponents. I may be reading too much into the hand history here, but these don't seem like the kind of players I'm usually trying to steal tiny pots and blinds from. Chronic limp-callers deserve to have smaller flushes than mine, and garbagey two pairs against my straights and sets; I don't care as much about that .25 that they're giving away.

Originally Posted by andy-akb

preflop I dont really see a problem with raising JTs from the button even with a couple limpers. Id rather have <2 but I still dont think preflop is -EV. Postflop isnt great, but if you are raising preflop and then a limper bets into you on the flop incredibly weakly a raise will often take down the pot right there. This is fairly read dependent, but it isnt always bad.

I agree, again, that reads come into it. But I think in general if you're going to raise some low-talent limpers in a cash game, you should have a real hand or a better sense of when to give up. I'm always suspicious when the action goes like this: limp, limp, I raise big, call, call. Then one of the limp-callers donks into me on the flop; even though it's a weak bet, what about this situation is screaming "raise $3, he's definitely going to fold"?

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Pretty easy fold. By the way this

UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2, folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises to $1.75

especially when followed by this

UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls

is gonna be -EV most of the time, when you are holding JT. By the time it gets to your flop raise, this is dangerously close to spew. You've ended up, by that point, committing $7 to a marginal hand that flopped a marginal draw; and it ended up costing you your stack when you turned a real draw and you made an interesting decision. I know it's all fashionable to run over the table, but I would much prefer to limp along here and try to make a strong hand vs. trying to steal a small pot with mediocre cards.

Well, I was never trying to get a flop, but once there I had a decent draw to attempt a takedown of the pot. I was prepared to check the turn for a free card when that card, one of only 2 in the deck that could make me think of goin AI, hit. Opp surprised me by goin AI. I had a ton of outs and figured he had, maybe a pair and put me on a steal and was trying to beat me to the punch. I figured any straight or Flush card was good for the win, and I was greedy and wanted his stack. Fnord was right too, the call was a bit out of spite as well.

As far as running over the table...well the single biggest exploitable part of the 10/25Nl is not knowing how to respond to aggression. A Loose image is THE best thing you can have at micro limits as a thinking player. I get paid more than any TAGG at my table...where my game needs more work is consistency. I can go on a $200 tear and lose it back in 6 or 8 hands making dumb moves. I'm working on that though...just not with this hand.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I agree, again, that reads come into it. But I think in general if you're going to raise some low-talent limpers in a cash game, you should have a real hand or a better sense of when to give up. I'm always suspicious when the action goes like this: limp, limp, I raise big, call, call. Then one of the limp-callers donks into me on the flop; even though it's a weak bet, what about this situation is screaming "raise $3, he's definitely going to fold"?

Well as a little backgroud, I'm playing on Pacific and the players there are horrible. I was playing Laggy and I've seen this move quite often where I raise and get calls Preflop and get bet into on the flop only to fold to a re-raise. When he called the turn it didn't raise many flags, just told me to slow down and take a card on the turn. But then I ended up with OESD and Flush draw and he pushed. I knew the call on the turn was questionable at best and a donk move at worst. I wanted to see where I fell inside that range and what I could have done differently up to that point.

Originally Posted by Thee One

Well, I was never trying to get a flop, but once there I had a decent draw to attempt a takedown of the pot.

Dirty overs, a backdoor flush, and a gutshot isn't a very good draw. Personally after the pre-flop action, I'd be more inclined to call the donk bet on the flop and see what the turn brings. You're getting pretty good odds, you're not sure exactly how many outs you have, and the turn card could change the texture a lot (as it did)... and in the event that magic card comes off, the pot is smaller and you might not be facing an all-in. You might just get a reasonable price to draw, and decent implied odds behind it.

Originally Posted by Thee One

I was prepared to check the turn for a free card when that card, one of only 2 in the deck that could make me think of goin AI, hit. Opp surprised me by goin AI. I had a ton of outs

This is fuzzy thinking. Be honest with yourself about it: you had 15 probable outs which puts you as a hair worse than a 2:1 dog. You and Fnord are both right about the spite call thing... you have to let this one go.

Originally Posted by Thee One

As far as running over the table...well the single biggest exploitable part of the 10/25Nl is not knowing how to respond to aggression. A Loose image is THE best thing you can have at micro limits as a thinking player. I get paid more than any TAGG at my table...where my game needs more work is consistency. I can go on a $200 tear and lose it back in 6 or 8 hands making dumb moves. I'm working on that though.

That's the problem with it right there. You say a loose image is the best thing you can have, but in my experience I can make just as much just as fast by finding super-aggro players and exploiting their tendency to string themselves up. All the decisions you made here (except the turn call) would be a lot better if you were more careful about when to fold. It's fine to play a little crazy, but you can't be emotional about it - it's just another tool to logically separate players from their money. As soon as the maniac inhabits you and you start really being that guy, then you're leaking money away. And if you know you have a tendency to do that, then basically every aggressive decision earlier in the hand becomes -EV (or maybe neutral EV) because of the built-in potential to lead you down this kind of path. Like you said, you can lose a ton in just a few poorly played hands. It's a big weakness of many highly aggressive players to not know when to let go of a bad bluff.

I think a lot of these decisions can come down to stylistic choices and the kind of table image you want to build... but to make money consistently with THIS style, you have to be fundamentally VERY solid as far as when to fold a draw without odds, and when to recognize that a fish has simply outflopped you, and isn't going to fold this time.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I agree, again, that reads come into it. But I think in general if you're going to raise some low-talent limpers in a cash game, you should have a real hand or a better sense of when to give up.

If Im in LP, preferably CO or Button not as much HJ, and there is 1 or 2 limpers then I will almost always be raising with the same range that I blind steal. This is very dependent on the limpers though, if they are calling stations then I will be more likely to limp behind. If they are loose preflop but fold to action on the flop then I will bet to build a big pot preflop that I can take down easily postflop. If they are tight I will raise and hope to take it down preflop, if they call I am going to be taking the pot down on the flop a good percentage of the time.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

I'm always suspicious when the action goes like this: limp, limp, I raise big, call, call. Then one of the limp-callers donks into me on the flop; even though it's a weak bet, what about this situation is screaming "raise $3, he's definitely going to fold"?

The thing about this situation that screams "raise, he is probably folding" is that when I am donk bet into with a very weak bet it is almost always a bluff that I take down with a raise, over 40k hands at small stakes [not a huge sample but definitely enough to see a general trend] this has been the case. After a flop raise I will take a note of how he responds, it is incredibly valuable information to know what a weak donkbet means from a villain and if I do have to fold its saving more money when I get into similar situations against the same opponent.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

That's the problem with it right there. You say a loose image is the best thing you can have, but in my experience I can make just as much just as fast by finding super-aggro players and exploiting their tendency to string themselves up. All the decisions you made here (except the turn call) would be a lot better if you were more careful about when to fold. It's fine to play a little crazy, but you can't be emotional about it - it's just another tool to logically separate players from their money. As soon as the maniac inhabits you and you start really being that guy, then you're leaking money away. And if you know you have a tendency to do that, then basically every aggressive decision earlier in the hand becomes -EV (or maybe neutral EV) because of the built-in potential to lead you down this kind of path. Like you said, you can lose a ton in just a few poorly played hands. It's a big weakness of many highly aggressive players to not know when to let go of a bad bluff.

I think a lot of these decisions can come down to stylistic choices and the kind of table image you want to build... but to make money consistently with THIS style, you have to be fundamentally VERY solid as far as when to fold a draw without odds, and when to recognize that a fish has simply outflopped you, and isn't going to fold this time.

Thank You. That's good advice that I knew already but sometimes ignore when I get 'hot'. I was up for this playing session by about 3 or 4 buy-ins and just gamboled when I shouldn't have. The funny thing is, this normally only happens when I'm clicking on all cylinders. When I'm taking down pots, showing down good hands when I need to, etc... Then a hand like this comes in and I feel invincible for lack of a better word. It's the biggest problem with my game. I KNOW what to do, I just don't do it sometimes. I need to apply myself more consistently.

I think in general if you're going to raise some low-talent limpers in a cash game, you should have a real hand or a better sense of when to give up. I'm always suspicious when the action goes like this: limp, limp, I raise big, call, call. Then one of the limp-callers donks into me on the flop; even though it's a weak bet, what about this situation is screaming "raise $3, he's definitely going to fold"?

I'm a habitual blind stealer and run into action like this all the time. I agree with Andy here. Weak bets post flop after limping generally mean weak hands at the lower levels. I'd say maybe 20% of the time you're up against a set or whatever, but it's usually pretty easy to tell and pretty easy to pitch whatever crap you have. If I raise on the button PF with a marginal hand and some limp/caller bets 1/4 pot into me, they're usually getting a big reraise back--they have to be convincing if they want me to drop my T9o.