played badly without read?

------HAND 5------
Game #1214194623: Hold'em NL ($0.25/$0.50) - 2005/11/02 - 15:54:13 (UK)
Table "Pantomime" Seat 7 is the button.
Seat 1: tdoggy11 ($18.85 in chips)
Seat 2: plan9 ($46.95 in chips)
Seat 3: Sebestyen ($11.20 in chips)
Seat 4: Tizwozere ($40.50 in chips)
Seat 5: vitek1 ($25.55 in chips)
Seat 6: strimma ($131.60 in chips)
Seat 8: Smiffy44 ($53.65 in chips)
Seat 9: RPmooney ($48.70 in chips)
Seat 10: Royalgoon ($47.25 in chips)
Smiffy44: posts small blind $0.25
RPmooney: posts big blind $0.50
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Smiffy44 [Qd Ad]
Royalgoon: folds
tdoggy11: calls $0.50
plan9: folds
Sebestyen: folds
Tizwozere: calls $0.50
vitek1: folds
strimma: raises to $3.50
Smiffy44: calls $3.25
RPmooney: folds
tdoggy11: folds
Tizwozere: calls $3
----- FLOP ----- [9d As Js]
Smiffy44: checks
Tizwozere: bets $1.50
strimma: folds
Smiffy44: raises to $7
Tizwozere: calls $5.50
----- TURN ----- [9d As Js][7d]
Smiffy44: checks
Tizwozere: bets $12.50
Smiffy44: raises to $43.15 and is all-in
Tizwozere: is all-in $17.50
Returned uncalled bets $13.15 to Smiffy44
----- RIVER ----- [9d As Js 7d][4s]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Smiffy44: shows [Qd Ad] (A Pair of Aces, Queen high)
Tizwozere: shows [9s 7s] (A Flush, Ace high)
Tizwozere collected $82.50 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $85.50 Main pot $82.50 Rake $3
Board [9d As Js 7d 4s]
Seat 1: tdoggy11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: plan9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Sebestyen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Tizwozere showed [9s 7s] and won ($82.50) with A Flush, Ace high
Seat 5: vitek1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: strimma folded on the Flop
Seat 8: Smiffy44 (small blind) lost
Seat 9: RPmooney (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Royalgoon folded before Flop (didn't bet)

What are you looking to hit here on the flop before you'll bet? AQQ? AQx? You hit your freaking ace, put some money in there. Knock people off of their draws. Make AQ wonder if YOU have AK. IF he plays hard back at you then you're going to have to go on your instincts there...And THAT is when reads become important. You didn't do anything here to "get a read" in the first place. You sat back and said, "OMG HE BET IT I'M BEAT," and walked away from the hand. Ever heard of anything called a continuation bet?

You played this hand scared from the get-go. If you're going to play scared then you deserve to lose money. These guys could have had ANYTHING, and you're sitting there going, "OMG WHAT IF HE HAS AK OR AJ?"

FOLD to the raise preflop if you're going to play it like this postflop.

{This post has been removed}

I dont like re-raising people PF if they havent been aggros, then I want to slow them down a bit. If they are willing to chase without the odds, good for us. Then we make money. If they fold, that is ok too.

You played it strongly after the flop. You cant blaim yourself for this guy chasing like crazy, even though he had 12 outs here which makes this about 55/45 to you.

I would be more worried for paying of 2 pair or such here with just TPGK for almost a buy-in.

I read the hand history a little wrong for starters, but still...

I dunno, the way I see his $1.50 raise on the flop is a blocking bet, a bet that says "hey, I'm drawing"...Jack it up and make him pay for his draw.

Some idiots you can't take off of their draws, and this seems to be one of them...but he made it $6 more to go in what was a then a $12 pot or so. Half-pot bets just won't do it, if you think you're good, 3/4 or full-pot it, is what me thinks.

Yes, reraising preflop would have been nice too...Either way, this is a bad beat. At all levels you're going to run into people like this. It sucks, move on, next hand...get your money back from him later when he misses his draw.

Rippy, the guy who won had two pair and a flush draw. Even if he's down he has 17 outs!

I think a re-evaluation on the turn is necessary here. You raise the flop HARD. He smooth calls and then leads out the turn for $12. At this point you have to believe he has one pair beat. A draw stall bet isn't this meaty.

I seriously consider folding the turn here to any player I respect at all.

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

The guy who won the hand was a fucking idiot calling off the rest of his stack with one card to go.

I could be missing something, but this guy has two pair and a flush draw. Why is this a bad move?

Without a read on the raiser's range, this is a routine pre-flop fold. We are out of position and have a hand that's often going to be second best if we go to the felt.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Without a read on the raiser's range, this is a routine pre-flop fold. We are out of position and have a hand that's often going to be second best if we go to the felt.

That's kinda what I was thinking.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

I read the hand history a little wrong for starters, but still...

I dunno, the way I see his $1.50 raise on the flop is a blocking bet, a bet that says "hey, I'm drawing"...Jack it up and make him pay for his draw.

Some idiots you can't take off of their draws, and this seems to be one of them...but he made it $6 more to go in what was a then a $12 pot or so. Half-pot bets just won't do it, if you think you're good, 3/4 or full-pot it, is what me thinks.

You're still reading it wrong. I raised him to $7 in a $10 pot. That is near enough '3/4'ing it.

Yes, reraising preflop would have been nice too...Either way, this is a bad beat. At all levels you're going to run into people like this. It sucks, move on, next hand...get your money back from him later when he misses his draw.

I'm not bothered about his play...I'm bothered about MY play.

My push was based on the extra outs for the nut flush draw if he called (anyone actually see this btw)?- this, and the likelylihood of 2 clean Q outs and 1 ace out if I was behind. If I was to continue in the hand, which would have been difficult not to considering he appeared to be drawing- I think I needed the extra FE by leading out on the turn? Or No?

I agree with Fnord's assessment I should have folded preflop OOP but a top 10 hand seemed good compared to some extremely cold cards I had been getting.

Thanks for the responses

In No Limit, more or less there are these hands groups:

AA/KK/QQ
Pocket Pairs
AK
Other big cards to pay people off with
Speculative trash
Pure trash

Originally Posted by Fnord

In No Limit, more or less there are these hands groups:

AA/KK/QQ
Pocket Pairs
AK
Other big cards to pay people off with
Speculative trash
Pure trash

ok, it looked good at the time, hows that.