RAISE that draw!

in this big blind hand, i flop flush draw and bottom pair. I thought for quite a while before making the big raise.. assuming my outs are clean I am a 51% to win, i dont like coinflips too much, but counting fold equity?? Whats the play here with the bet and raise before me?

POKERSTARS GAME #2664114768: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/09/26 - 08:02:16 (ET)
Table 'Eros' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Scott Owen ($106.20 in chips)
Seat 2: Scott_King ($44.55 in chips)
Seat 3: blackbart900 ($11.70 in chips)
Seat 5: mkdyer ($86.50 in chips)
Seat 6: 5spades ($27.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Sven85 ($16.90 in chips)
Seat 8: TocOne ($111.05 in chips)
Seat 9: kdibrita ($32.40 in chips)
kdibrita: posts small blind $0.50
Scott Owen: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Scott Owen [ :Th:]
Scott_King: folds
blackbart900: calls $1
mkdyer: folds
5spades: calls $1
Sven85: calls $1
TocOne: folds
kdibrita: calls $0.50
Scott Owen: checks
*** FLOP *** [ :Jh:]
kdibrita: checks
Scott Owen: checks
blackbart900: checks
5spades: checks
Sven85: bets $3
kdibrita: raises $3 to $6
Scott Owen: raises $44 to $50
blackbart900: folds
5spades: folds
Sven85: folds
kdibrita: folds
Scott Owen collected $19.05 from pot
Scott Owen: shows [ :Th:] (a pair of Deuces)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $20 | Rake $0.95
Board [2c 8h Jh]
Seat 1: Scott Owen (big blind) collected ($19.05)
Seat 2: Scott_King folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: blackbart900 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: mkdyer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: 5spades folded on the Flop
Seat 7: Sven85 folded on the Flop
Seat 8: TocOne (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: kdibrita (small blind) folded on the Flop

"Yes hello, police? I'd like to report a case of fold equity abuse. Ya, the guy next door with a pair of two's. He thinks he has the biggest nuts. He keeps dragging them around in a little pot."

Originally Posted by Rondavu

"Yes hello, police? I'd like to report a case of fold equity abuse. Ya, the guy next door with a pair of two's. He thinks he has the biggest nuts. He keeps dragging them around in a little pot."

Haha, ok point taken.

so whats the deal then.. just fold it?? i think so.. a call looks like the draw and i may then not be paid.. and the possible 2 pair is a bit weak i guess

I did base it on the fact that none of my opps had more than $25 in their stack.. though now i look back and think, that makes the fold equity point even less sensual

well I like ur play

10 bucks in the pot, none of em got more than 25 left, so basicly ur risking 25 on a what is most likely a coinflip to take 10 if they do what they usually do, fold.

good play, good value.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

"Yes hello, police? I'd like to report a case of fold equity abuse. Ya, the guy next door with a pair of two's. He thinks he has the biggest nuts. He keeps dragging them around in a little pot."

Agreed. The AI was bad. But a reraise to like 15 dollars woulda been really hot.

-'rilla

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by Rondavu

"Yes hello, police? I'd like to report a case of fold equity abuse. Ya, the guy next door with a pair of two's. He thinks he has the biggest nuts. He keeps dragging them around in a little pot."

Agreed. The AI was bad. But a reraise to like 15 dollars woulda been really hot.

-'rilla

why that ? he dont want calls since theyr shortstacked, he want em to fold.

Calling is weak, except sometimes. This seems like one of those times. You're being asked to cold call $6 into $14 pot with about a 50% chance to improve. It's tough (borderline), but just do it.

I don't normally try to employ fold equity on a check raise, lest you be tested all in right there. If you smooth call, you have position on the check raiser, odds to call, and a boatload of outs.

You might try a third min-check raise, such as making it $9 to go in an isolation against the SB. A rare limit scenerio in NL play. I mean you wanna try to get a turn check from the SB, but by raising you run the risk of aggitating him without a made hand.

I just don't have a perfect answer. It's a weird situation.

At this type of level 100 NLHE, I would typically put someone with that type of bet on a draw of some sorts. Typical type play for someone who's desperate to buy off the pot. Someone who acts this strong is typically weak in this situation.

All around funny post..

Definetely hot..

rillas raise to $15, that would put the intial better and one other opp AI.. it would leave the other opp with 10 and the raiser with about 16. If we assume that only the raiser will call, which is the most likely situation, this is what we are left with..

I will have position on my opp..
the pot will be $38
my opp will have $16 stack

we are trying to achieve a check from my op on the turn. which looking at the above info seems unlikely to me, we are risking a frustrated turn push. Now if I miss, my odds are down to a 30% chance to hit, so i'd be getting odds to call, if my outs are clean.. its probably going AI.. but we have the chance to hit the draw for less.. makes sense.

rons raise to 9.. weird raise to make i think.. could see us being put AI at the flop.. which wouldnt be too bad, odds are there

doubledown, your saying that the checkraiser is on a draw? what about the better.. are we taking that into consideration, theres good sense in raising a draw.. even the 2s are beating a plain flush draw or straight draw.. but where do we stand against the first bettor?? this is a limp pot so we lack info.

Originally Posted by rondavu

Calling is weak, except sometimes. This seems like one of those times. You're being asked to cold call $6 into $14 pot with about a 50% chance to improve. It's tough (borderline), but just do it.

we are calling to the turn, not the turn and river.. i have a 30% chance to improve, so my odds are'nt quite there.

This was part of my reasoning behind pushing, i wanted that 50/50 to back me up if they stayed in, and I guess i thought a push game me stronger fold equity. But does it really?

I dont get why u guys are so happy for slowplaying this ??

he got about nada implied odds for getting payed if he hits hes monster by calling. He does have 50% chance of loosing the hand however.

Why not just put em to the test, be happy when they fold, and take the pot, knowing that u just saved urself from a 50/50 flip ??

Considering the opponent stack sizes, I have to reconsider and back RICH up on the all in. The only fold equity he has is on the flop here. He loses it immediately thereafter. If you're staying in for less than a push, then you're committing the opponents anyway. You can also use the image later on.

Really tough one here RICH. I mean I like a modest raise, but like you said they had no money to get deep on late streets anyway. Carumba. Whatever it takes to slide the most money this way I say. If RICH was called he would have been instantly employing his outs. I'm cornfused. I guess this hand is all about the instant take down with remaining fold equity.

Here's an idea...

Instead of using fold equity, committ the opponents on purpose with so many outs. Naaaa. Just an idea. A little tricky I guess.

Maybe one of the other opps had the bigger flush draw (AK?) and by reraising AI would drive that out.. So reraising AI cleans the outs in a way..

Originally Posted by johnny_fish

Maybe one of the other opps had the bigger flush draw (AK?) and by reraising AI would drive that out.. So reraising AI cleans the outs in a way..

Its possible, but unlikely, its a limp pot. So AK is out, KQ, Kx, Qx, are the possibles for that. So that depends on how loose they are, and i dont really know them. I generally assume though that someone playing with a $20 stack at 100nl isnt too smart.

Originally Posted by rondavu

Instead of using fold equity, committ the opponents on purpose with so many outs. Naaaa. Just an idea. A little tricky I guess.

It seems a bit pointless, to commit them for the turn, and put the rest in with good odds for the river.. Makes more sense to throw it all in at the flop and gain the fold equity to avoid the 50/50 when your going to put it AI anyway. So i guess it comes down to knowing the opps, and whether mr checkraise will check the turn if i raise

Here's a similar hand. Major difference is that it was an SnG. The blinds were gonna go up soon and I was inspired by this post to gamble.

FullTiltPoker Game #232924693: $20 + $2 Sit & Go (1488821), Table 1 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:09:24 ET - 2005/09/27
Seat 1: nynucklehead (3,385)
Seat 2: smoak (1,040)
Seat 3: mronepercent (1,425)
Seat 5: ekillian (1,080)
Seat 6: bigsurf (2,055)
Seat 8: CLouise (4,025)
Seat 9: kev55 (490)
ekillian posts the small blind of 30
bigsurf posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ekillian [4h 9h]
CLouise folds
kev55 folds
nynucklehead folds
smoak calls 60
mronepercent folds
ekillian calls 30
bigsurf checks
*** FLOP *** [Kh 9d Ah]
ekillian checks
bigsurf checks
smoak bets 60
ekillian raises to 180
bigsurf folds
smoak raises to 300
ekillian raises to 1,020, and is all in
smoak calls 680, and is all in
ekillian shows [4h 9h]
smoak shows [Ac Ts]
Uncalled bet of 40 returned to ekillian
*** TURN *** [Kh 9d Ah] [6d]
*** RIVER *** [Kh 9d Ah 6d] [4s]
ekillian shows two pair, Nines and Fours
smoak shows a pair of Aces
ekillian wins the pot (2,140) with two pair, Nines and Fours
smoak stands up
The blinds are now 40/80
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,140 | Rake 0
Board: [Kh 9d Ah 6d 4s]
Seat 1: nynucklehead didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: smoak showed [Ac Ts] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: mronepercent (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: ekillian (small blind) showed [4h 9h] and won (2,140) with two pair, Nines and Fours
Seat 6: bigsurf (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: CLouise didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: kev55 didn't bet (folded)

interesting hand, I dont play sngs so i dont really understand the differences yet.. bit more of a gamble than mine i think, if you raise him and then he reraises you back, by which stage he has committed a fair bit of his stack.. the fold equity is less, but then again, he may want to protect his stack. This is the kind of move i'd put on a guy at the bubble, though dont take that as sound advice, like i said, no expierience in sngs.

The only reason i can see him calling here is because he's committed, its a limp pot, so you could be on set or two pair already and his kicker isnt great, plus his behind against any big draws such as yours..