This really aggravates me

I hate hands like this. I Flop TPGK, 2 of a suit that I dont have also Flopped. I make a pot size bet, to not give the Flush draw, odds to call. Villian calls. Turn is a blank. I make another pot size bet. Villian calls. River completes the Flush draw. I raise Villian re-raises. Now he is telling me he made his Flush. This is where I have lost alot of $ in the past. I would think, I didnt give him the right price to draw to the Flush or anything. So he cant have a Flush. He probably has TPWK, or he is Bluffing the Flush. So I would call, sometimes raise. Sure enough he has the Flush, and alot of times it would be like T,6s. Its like they have no concept of Pot Odds, they play any 2 suited cards and call any bet if they Flop 4 to the Flush, as if they a sure they will hit their Flush. How am I supposed to put them on a Flush/Draw, when they played it totally wrong?

I have read other Posts here and I know that it should be good if your opponents will make bad calls like that. That in the long run you will make money off of them. Its just that it hasnt worked that way for me at all. Yea I have won a few pots when they missed their Flush draw, but I have lost a whole lot more from them making their Flush. For whatever reason that 3rd Flush card comes down alot more than it doesnt. Thats not just a tainted observation. Ive written down and kept track of it before, for a few weeks. It was almost 80% of the time when I had the best hand and 2 of a suit Flopped the 3rd hit on the Turn or River.

Sometimes I'll call their raises when 3 of a suite is on the board. Lately though I mostly just Fold. It feels so weak to Fold, I guess I am just spooked though. Because I have lost so much $ calling or raising, thinking they dont have a Flush because they didnt have the odds to draw to it. Then 9 times out of 10 they do and I lose.

For awhile I was losing so much $ making Pot size or bigger bets on the Flop and Turn when 2 of a suite Flopped. Trying to stop the Flush Draw. Then Folding or making a bad call when the 3rd card of the suite hits, and opponent raises with their Flush. I started just making small bets when 2 of a suit Flopped. That way when the 3rd of that suite hit and my opponent raised I wouldnt lose so much. Like I said when I kept track of it for a few weeks about 80% of the time the 3rd of the suite did hit.

I know thats really bad and I am just asking for them to draw out on me. But I was losing less $ in those situations. My thoughts were they arent going to Fold to a raise anyway it doesnt matter how big. And most of the time the 3rd of the suite will hit. So why waste the $? I know thats probably stupid, but I really wasnt losing as much $. I didnt want to be playing stupid. So I went back to making proper raises to not give the odds for the Draws. It went right back to the same way it was.

I am playing totally spooked of Flush draws. I know there has to be some observant players taking advantage of this weakness I have. But everytime I make the call thinking I didnt give them the odds to draw to the Flush they dont have it. Bam! There it is!

I need help. I am so frustrated over this and dont know what to do. I would like to know how do other people deal with hands and opponents like this?

Heres the most recent example. I know I should have probably raised more PF, but I was playing tight and folded alot of hands PF. I made a few PF raises only like 3-4BBs. When I had AKs 2x and then QQ. The whole table folded. Even though I was in late position with a few Limpers in front of me. They still folded not even paying the 2-3 more BBs to see the Flop. So thats why I limped this hand. To get someone to see a Flop with me.

Hows my play on this hand? What would you do different? Would you make the River call?

Game #1625195862 - (blinds $0.10/$0.25) No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2006/08/02-07:27:48.2 (CST)
Table "Benirras" (real money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: fatbeer ($20.60 in chips)
Seat 2: SlickStuff ($37.40 in chips)
Seat 3: noLimit75 ($26.45 in chips)
Seat 4: assissagy ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 5: awoimmm ($36.95 in chips)
Seat 6: Leppy152 ($55.65 in chips)
Seat 7: Tigon74 ($18.40 in chips)
Seat 8: dacquoi ($22.30 in chips)
Seat 9: 90g09 ($27.30 in chips)
Seat 10: Ugly Ed ($24.60 in chips)
Tigon74 : Post Small Blind ($0.10)
dacquoi : Post Big Blind ($0.25)
Dealing...
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ Ac ]
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ Jh ]
90g09 : Fold
Ugly Ed : Call ($0.25)
fatbeer : Call ($0.25)
SlickStuff: Fold
noLimit75: Fold
assissagy: Fold
awoimmm : Call ($0.25)
Leppy152: Fold
Tigon74 : Call ($0.15)
dacquoi : Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 8s Th As ]
Tigon74 : Check
dacquoi : Check
Ugly Ed : Bet ($1)
fatbeer : Call ($1)
awoimmm : Fold
Tigon74 : Fold
dacquoi : Fold
*** TURN *** : [ 8s Th As ] [ Qd ]
Ugly Ed : Bet ($3.20)
fatbeer : Call ($3.20)
*** RIVER *** : [ 8s Th As Qd ] [ Qs ]
Ugly Ed : Bet ($4)
fatbeer : Raise ($9.50)
Ugly Ed : Fold / Right thing to do?
fatbeer : Winner -- doesn't show cards
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $16.80 | Rake: $0.85
Board: [ 8s Th As Qd Qs ]
fatbeer bet $13.95, collected $22.30, net +$8.35
SlickStuff didn't bet (folded)
noLimit75 didn't bet (folded)
assissagy didn't bet (folded)
awoimmm lost $0.25 (folded)
Leppy152 didn't bet (folded)
Tigon74 lost $0.25 (folded)
dacquoi lost $0.25 (folded)
90g09 didn't bet (folded)
Ugly Ed lost $8.45 (folded) [ Ac Jh ] (two pair, aces and queens)
-----------------------------------------------------

if they call, call, raise, they hit their flush, and you can lay down. Whether or not they SHOULD call your bets because you cut their odds doesn't matter. It's whether or not the DO call your bets anyway. In this case, they chased against bad odds and hit. Nothing you can do about that......except play the same way next time.

BTW, if they hit their flushes against you 80% of the time, then you will go through a stretch where they hit 5-10% of the time. Overall it will be a little over a third of the time. So the math will even out eventually!

Another question. I was pretty sure he made his Flush. Thats why he kept calling. There wasnt any other draws out there. He may have a had AK, AQ, a Set or A bad kicker and just called. I have been seeing alot of people doing that lately. Just call me down with TP any kicker or a better hand. Never raising or folding, so I'm not sure where I'm at in the hand. I was 90% sure though this was a Flush draw and he hit.

My question is. Since I was so sure he hit his Flush. Do I even waste the $ with the River raise I made? Or should I just Check/Fold? I now that Checking automatically tells my opponent that Flush card scares me, and I invite a Bluff. But does it matter since most of the time in a situation like this they will have the Flush?

BTW, if they hit their flushes against you 80% of the time, then you will go through a stretch where they hit 5-10% of the time. Overall it will be a little over a third of the time. So the math will even out eventually!

Thanks for the words of hope. It really helps to hear. I wish it would happen soon. Its totally getting to me. So I should keep making the proper size bets to block the Flush Draws right? And just keep telling myself it will turn around and just try to keep my sanity?

Yeah, I check/fold river, unless they make some stupid bet like $1...

Remember that you only get to see their flushes that hit. You don't see all the times that 3rd flush card doesn't come and villain folds the river.

On a side note, if you put villain on a flush draw check-call the river. No use in betting if he's gonna fold, might as well let him bluff at you. It'll let you pick off some bluffs plus save you some cash when he has some other hand like a random two pair or such.

Edit: check-call the river when the flush doesn't hit, of course. Check-fold if it hits.

on the hand history you posted, I think you played the hand poorly - First of all I wouldn't limp in with AJoff there - I don't mind raising it, but you got 5 players in the pot - 1 pair was NOT what your looking to hit in those situations - The flop bet is fine, but you keep betting the turn strong and then another strong bet on the river - You have 1 pair with a decent Kick here - If you don't take this pot down on the flop or the turn, its time to give it up - your hand is not that strong but your betting like your protecting it - Definitely fold the river and since the board paired and the flush card hit I wouldn't even lead out there most of the time - any hand he was calling with now has you beat (most of the time) - So I would check/fold or check/call for a small bet - $9.50 isn't a small bet -

Basically with the AJoff there I would try to raise up preflop or just fold it - UTG +1 at a ful ltable I would fold it preflop - You will make a lot more money in NL when you hit sets and weird 2 pairs and what not - If your getting involved in big pots with 1 pair, you need to re-evaluate a bit - Now at a 6 max table the play is fine - top pair is much more valuable there - but against a full table (and 5 callers - yuck) your 1 pair is not usually taking it down -

and don't let it get you down - Learning when your beat and folding hands is a great skill to learn - Its certainly not weak - If players see you as weak, you can turn that on them and kill em big time - It took me a LONG time to start folding 2nd best hands, but when I did it improved the winrate a lot -

don't build big pots with weak hands out of position. can someone sticky just that phrase please?

also, you don't have to bet the whole pot to give them bad odds.

no, he doesn't need that phrase ( i do though lol) - GO READ RENTONS NL HANDS POST - that will give you a great start and an idea of why this pot should not have gotten that big -

raise or fold preflop, depending on the table. slow down on the turn. fold the river.

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

I hate hands like this. I Flop TPGK, 2 of a suit that I dont have also Flopped. I make a pot size bet, to not give the Flush draw, odds to call. Villian calls.

Your thinking here is flawed. Your opponent often isn't making a mistake here, DUCY?

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

Turn is a blank. I make another pot size bet. Villian calls.

Alright, at this point your bet does have more teeth.

Originally Posted by Ugly Ed

River completes the Flush draw. I raise Villian re-raises. Now he is telling me he made his Flush. This is where I have lost alot of $ in the past. I would think, I didnt give him the right price to draw to the Flush or anything. So he cant have a Flush. He probably has TPWK, or he is Bluffing the Flush. So I would call, sometimes raise.

Your poor hand reading and loose river action gives him implied odds to make his hand.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Your thinking here is flawed. Your opponent often isn't making a mistake here, DUCY?

I dont CY, really, elaborate?

(Or is that in fact what you did with regards to implied odds and paying off on the river?)

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Originally Posted by Fnord

Your thinking here is flawed. Your opponent often isn't making a mistake here, DUCY?

I dont CY, really, elaborate?

Many people have very loose flop betting standards. Folding a flush draw to those bets is just pissing away money. Heck, I call cheap bets all the time with crap like air, bottom pair and missed pairs. Lets see a turn card and turn bet baby!

Then throw in the escalating stakes at every street, plus our hero way over-playing his pair on the river. Implied odds are good enough that it can't be a big mistake.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Originally Posted by Fnord

Your thinking here is flawed. Your opponent often isn't making a mistake here, DUCY?

I dont CY, really, elaborate?

Many people have very loose flop betting standards. Folding a flush draw to those bets is just pissing away money. Heck, I call cheap bets all the time with crap like air, bottom pair and missed pairs. Lets see a turn card and turn bet baby!

Then throw in the escalating stakes at every street, plus our hero way over-playing his pair on the river. Implied odds are good enough that it can't be a big mistake.

So what can hero do other than not paying the river?

I can see calling a flop PSB in an unraised pot because of the bet size in relation to later street bets, but isn't a pot sized chase on the turn a bit expensive? Of course if villain has a read on hero that he'll definitily pay off big time things change.

Related to this, I can see a good villain with an opposite read on hero calling down with A-rag, midpair or similar with the added win possibility of pushing the hero out when the scare card hits.

Originally Posted by HalvSame

So what can hero do other than not paying the river?

Stop raising, mix up calls and folds.

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Related to this, I can see a good villain with an opposite read on hero calling down with A-rag, midpair or similar with the added win possibility of pushing the hero out when the scare card hits.

where do you get the balls to play this way? Sounds like a great move, if I only had the nerve to pull one off - I try plenty of river bluffs when THERE apparent flush draw missed, but I haven't floated with attempts to bluff the river - sounds strong (this is floating, right? To call with intention of bluffing the pot away later, or hitting a big draw)

Ed,

It's been reported that if Lee has flicked your switch, the 3rd suited card in fact comes down approximately 90% of the time. I just felt that was pertinent to this discussion.

Another hand very similar

Trying some of the stuff I have been told. At the 10$NL table. The people here are total Donks they will call you down with ANY pair or Draw. They love Flush draws.

I have mixed feelings about this hand. I was dealt 66. Limp in, catch my Set on the Flop. There is also 2 Clubs on the Board. So going with what I was told on my other hand in this post when Villian sucked out the Flush. I kept my bets smaller, but still high enough to not give them the odds to draw. I know one of them HAS to be on the Flush draw. I was hoping to make a FH, really hoping the Tc came on the river. I knew I would de stack 2 people if it did. Sure enough the other Club hit on the River, but not the T. So it was Check/Fold for me. 2 of them went to show down one had the Nut Flush. The other had unbelievably K3s. Calling those bets with just a pair of 3s. Then calling off his stack with just 2 pair.

On this hand I am glad I didn't bet as much on the Flop and Turn cause I didn't lose as much. On the other hand though if I would have made bigger bets the Flush draw may have folded. Its doubtful though with these players, he may have even called an all in raise. I dont know. Basically though it seems this hand was just a coin Flip there was probably nothing I could have done to win this hand. I hate the feeling that it is ONLY up to the cards whether you win or lose. That you have no control over it. Thats How I feel about this hand, and most others like this.

What do you think about this hand and how I played it? You do anything different?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Game #1627396145 - (blinds $0.05/$0.10) No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2006/08/03-11:23:41.7 (CST)
Table "Dominica" (real money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: Ugly Ed ($10.00 in chips)
Seat 2: juddimal ($10.00 in chips)
Seat 3: Critter17 ($3.90 in chips)
Seat 5: ocklawahaboy ($3.65 in chips)
Seat 6: bawrash ($8.87 in chips)
Seat 7: Mad Maz ($2.98 in chips)
Seat 8: lsufan52 ($7.65 in chips)
Seat 9: AD2 Ag0 ($9.20 in chips)
Seat 10: CAMMER ($2.87 in chips)
Mad Maz : Post Small Blind ($0.05)
lsufan52: Post Big Blind ($0.10)
Dealing...
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ 6h ]
Dealt to Ugly Ed [ 6s ]
AD2 Ag0 : Fold
CAMMER : Call ($0.10)
Ugly Ed : Call ($0.10)
juddimal: Fold
Critter17: Fold
ocklawahaboy: Call ($0.10)
bawrash : Call ($0.10)
Mad Maz : Call ($0.05)
lsufan52: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 6c 3c 2s ]
Mad Maz : Check
lsufan52: Check
CAMMER : Check
Ugly Ed : Bet ($0.40)
ocklawahaboy: Call ($0.40)
bawrash : Call ($0.40)
Mad Maz : Call ($0.40)
lsufan52: Call ($0.40)
CAMMER : Fold
*** TURN *** : [ 6c 3c 2s ] [ Ts ]
Mad Maz : Check
lsufan52: Check
Ugly Ed : Bet ($1)
ocklawahaboy: Fold
bawrash : Fold
Mad Maz : Call ($1)
lsufan52: Call ($1)
*** RIVER *** : [ 6c 3c 2s Ts ] [ Kc ]
Mad Maz : Check
lsufan52: Bet ($5)
Ugly Ed : Fold
Mad Maz : Call All-in ($1.48)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $8.16 | Rake: $0.40
Board: [ 6c 3c 2s Ts Kc ]
Ugly Ed lost $1.50 (folded) [ 6h 6s ] (three of a kind, sixes)
juddimal didn't bet (folded)
Critter17 didn't bet (folded)
ocklawahaboy lost $0.50 (folded)
bawrash lost $0.50 (folded)
Mad Maz lost $2.98 (showed hand) [ Ks 3s ] (two pair, kings and threes)
lsufan52 bet $6.50, collected $11.68, net +$5.18 (showed hand) [ 7c Ac ] (a flush, ace high)
AD2 Ag0 didn't bet (folded)
CAMMER lost $0.10 (folded)

Hammer turn.

Hammer turn.

Ok now I am confused. I was told before I was betting to much trying to block the Flsuh draw. Now I am being told I didnt bet enough. Plus I dont think he would have folded anyway. I dont know what to do.

You don't have a pair, you have a set! Get all of the money into the pot and scream at the top of your lungs GIMME A DEUCE!!!!

If they suck out, smile, re-assure them that they had pot-odds to call and you would have called such a wild bet too. Then gamble with them some more.

really - much different scenario - In hand 1 your flop bet got called by only 1 person - In hand 2 you got called by 4 others...That is a lotta people drawing against you and its assured that at least 1 of them has a club or straight draw - This is a board where you can bet a lot more...However, you get the same set of 6's on a board like K,6,3 rainbow, and now you have a monster - Any time the board is coordinated (like in both examples) people are going to be drawing - if you have a set you need to punish them - sets are so much stronger than top pair, and they are hidden - A lot of times you are getting called by mid pocket pairs like 77, 88 or 99 here also because an overpair looks pretty good on that board - punish those loose callers -

Ed, back to the first hand. Lets assume he doesn't have a flush draw. Maybe he limped with Ax. On the turn, AK, AQ, AT, and A8 all have you beat. Just read the board, even if the flush draw didn't hit, that is a damn scary board for AJ especially since they just called pot size bets on the flop and turn.

88 and TT and just letting you build the pot. (If I had a set I would have raised sooner, but others will wait until the river).

As played the turn should be 2.80 or say, river is probably a check fold.


The second hand, the turn bet is $5 or more-- you have more outs to fill up then they do to hit the flush and you probably have the current best hand.

Originally Posted by bmxicle(in high stakes)

Basically its impossible to tell you how to all of a sudden to do well but here are some very broad tips:
-don't succumb to fancy play syndrome, just play solid
-learn how to play the turn and river, as those basically aren't a factor in tournaments
-don't destack with single pair hands without a good reason (this is probably the most important part)

That enough for you ed? When your hand is strong get the money in. When your hand is semi-strong play it appropriatly, kill the draws. So long as a chaser makes a pot odds mistake (no matter how large) they are making a mistake, and when they chased it all that way, just dont pay them.

Thanks for the advice

I see what you all are telling me. I usually will make pot sized bets whenever I am in the lead and think opponents are on a Flush or any Draw. In both of these hands I WAS in the lead until the River. I was pretty sure of that from the cold calls they made. Like in the 1st hand if opponent had me beat before the River. And if he was a decent player he would probably raise incase I was on the Flush draw. That was my read anyway, and I was right.

I see that in the 1st hand though, my hand was a lot weaker than in the 2nd hand. In both hands it probably wouldnt have mattered what I would have bet. My opponents were determined to call down the Flush Draw. That's the part that gets me so aggravated it doesn't matter if I make a big bet or a small bet. They will call the draw. I really have no control if i win the hand or not. I just have to hope they start missing more than they hit. I will do what you all are telling me. Make smaller bets with just TP and bigger bets when I have at least 2pair or better.

So long as a chaser makes a pot odds mistake (no matter how large) they are making a mistake, and when they chased it all that way, just dont pay them.

Although I may be Bluffed out of a few pots. If opponent is steady calling then the 3rd of a suite hits on the River. I'll just give him credit for the Flush.

Ed,

I'm going to be brutally honest with you. lsufan52 played his hand well in the most recent hand you posted, and you played it absolutely abysmally. Do you really expect anyone on a draw to fold to that turn bet??? (hint: He is virtually always correct in calling both your flop and turn bet with the NFD).

You need to absolutely hammer that turn, by the way. Without looking at stack sizes/pot sizes trying to allign them perfectly with a river bet, just pot this baby.

Ed,

I'm going to be brutally honest with you. lsufan52 played his hand well in the most recent hand you posted, and you played it absolutely abysmally. Do you really expect anyone on a draw to fold to that turn bet??? (hint: He is virtually always correct in calling both your flop and turn bet with the NFD).

You need to absolutely hammer that turn, by the way. Without looking at stack sizes/pot sizes trying to allign them perfectly with a river bet, just pot this baby.

Like I said I usually always make Pot sized bets on the Flop/Turn when there are draws like that. But read the responses I got from other people when I did that before. They told me I was raising it way to much (Pot size raises) So I was doing what they said to do rather than what I usually do. I was just going to try out what I was told. Thats why I'm doing it at 10$nl. Normally I would hammer the Turn, but....

Granted afterwards I was told that in my most recent hand it was alot better than in the 1st, but in both hands I was in the lead until the River. I didnt give the guy in the 1st hand odds at all to draw the Flush, but he did anyway. On the 2nd hand I bet to small on the Turn. I was just trying what people had suggested I do. Plus I dont think it would have mattered anyway. In hand 2 he probably would have called an all in bet, but like I said about when there are Flush Draws.

I will do what you all are telling me. Make smaller bets with just TP and bigger bets when I have at least 2pair or better.

Edit: Basically if I would normally make pot sized bets to block a Flush Draw with TPGK when I am certain I am in the lead and opponent is drawing to the Flush. I would definitely do it when I had a Set and a draw to the FH. My play now will be a smaller bet when I have just TP maybe 2pair. If I have a Set or Str8 I'll bet heavy on the Flop Hammer the Turn. Then hope they dont hit if we go all in. I'll see how that works. Sound right?

Like I said I usually always make Pot sized bets on the Flop/Turn when there are draws like that. But read the responses I got from other people when I did that before. They told me I was raising it way to much (Pot size raises) So I was doing what they said to do rather than what I usually do. I was just going to try out what I was told.

Listening to people without understanding the reasoning behind their advice doesn't do you any good. When you have a set on a super drawy board with many players to act behind you, you have to bomb it.

On the 2nd hand I bet to small on the Turn. I was just trying what people had suggested I do.

I don't think anybody would recommend you make such a tiny bet...

Plus I dont think it would have mattered anyway. In hand 2 he probably would have called an all in bet, but like I said about when there are Flush Draws.

Excellent! Put him all in then!!! (seriously)

I will do what you all are telling me. Make smaller bets with just TP and bigger bets when I have at least 2pair or better.

If you avoid players that have any sense of hand-reading ability, this is a great idea.

Edit: Basically if I would normally make pot sized bets to block a Flush Draw with TPGK when I am certain I am in the lead and opponent is drawing to the Flush. I would definitely do it when I had a Set and a draw to the FH. My play now will be a smaller bet when I have just TP maybe 2pair. If I have a Set or Str8 I'll bet heavy on the Flop Hammer the Turn. Then hope they dont hit if we go all in. I'll see how that works. Sound right?

meh, if you just bet significant fractions of the pot when you think you're ahead (before the draw completes in this instance), and can get out of the hand when you are behind for the most part (after the draw completes in this instance), you should be in good shape. Stop putting so many guidelines on yourself and just play.