River line vs Criminal

Criminal is a multi-tabling TAgg, plays a lot like you probably do if you're reading this. He's already picked me off once going after his blinds, so we've been going at it a bit.
MP is the table sucker, too aggressive, calls too much. ETA of about 1-4 orbits until he loses the rest of his stack.

Oh yeah, this flop float really really sucks...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($107.95)
MP ($66.20)
CO ($96.40)
Fnord ($222.85)
SB ($53.40)
BB (Criminal) ($98.75)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 6, 4.
1 fold, MP calls $1, 1 fold, Fnord calls $1, 1 fold, BB (Criminal) checks.

Flop: ($3.50) 4, 5, J
Criminal bets $3, MP folds, Fnord calls $3.

Turn: ($9.50) 6
Criminal bets $8, Fnord calls $8.

River: ($25.50) K
Criminal checks, Fnord bets $??

...and for great victory, what's Criminal's range here? Guess his exact hand?

Guessing his exact hand means he went to showdown which means he either had a jack or is check-raising you with a bigger hand. Obviously you can get away from a check-raise or else that would have been the meat of your post, so im going to guess that you made the appropriate value bet of about 10~12 bucks and he tables something like JT.

his range is lots of Jacks, 67, 63. Even on the flop, i think you can nail his range down to ahead of or drawing well against your hand, so i probably don't even bother.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

his range is lots of Jacks, 67, 63.

And, unfortunately, 23.

I think he probably leads 23 on this river. But checking into a Fnord-ish player could work out in his favor.

J7

If he's a standard tagg like myself, TPGK is the most likely hand. Don't see 23 as all that likely here. I'm with Rilla--half pot-ish.

He's the BB so he can have virtually any two. Top pair weak kicker is in his range just aswell any two pair with an J, or 23. Because of this tricky situation I would check behind here, barely ever a hand you beat will call your bet. If he is pretty sure renton will bet the check on the river is smart since he will get two bets (bet and raise) out of him...

Criminal has probably seen enough of Fnord to be fairly confident he'll bet the river if checked to. His line is consistent with Jx - JT, QJ, KJ - but any pp is in his range and I'm thinking he flopped a set and is going for a c/r on the river. He might limp JJ but I doubt it.

55

Fnord bets $15-20 is raised to $45-60.

Any particular reason $12 or $20 or $25 is the right amount to bet here?

I take it a lot of ya's are folding pre-flop?

I sincerely doubt he has 23 or 78. Why would you bet the card that made your straight but check the next street which is a blank?

KJ would make me el oh ell. Fits the near PSB he was throwing out too. He probably tried to push you out earlier but is now worried you hit the straight and is looking to c/c cheaply.

Btw, I put out $15 as a blocking bet of sorts.

How come no turn raise? You're either loosing here or not, so find out.

In this situation I would value the river.

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

How come no turn raise? You're either loosing here or not, so find out.

His turn bet gave me enough information, thank you.

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

In this situation I would value the river.

How much?

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

How come no turn raise? You're either loosing here or not, so find out.

His turn bet gave me enough information, thank you.

What hand does he have then? One that beats yours? if so, check the river.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by BankItPayette

In this situation I would value the river.

How much?

If you think you're ahead and put him on Jx, 1/3 pot.

$15 if you're ready to call a raise, $20 if you aren't.

I think he has J weak kicker and will only call a small river bet, or J4/J5 and plans to c/r the river. I bet $12 and probably fold to a big raise.

i value bet the river becuase he seems like hes on a jack the whole way and probably figues to try and check/call catch some bluffs. 12ish bucks seems like a good number to keep him from losing his nerve on the river.

Fnord bets $12
Criminal insta-calls
4 5 no g00t
Silly fish thought he could suck-out on me on the flop.

On a more serious note, this hand had me thinking about both the line he took and river bet sizing given that I pretty much put him on Jx like you guys did.

Agro draw and some pair? 67/77/J7/63

I don't see why he would check the river if he improved or thought he had the better hand. Looks like he gave up, but if he's got a piece he might still call $10-$15 (probably on the lower side of that range). His turn bet seems designed to guage the strength of your hand ... I don't think you smooth-call that if you can't beat one pair at that point.

I'm leaning towards 77/67/63.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Fnord bets $12
Criminal insta-calls
4 5 no g00t
Silly fish thought he could suck-out on me on the flop.

So he's probably calling more. Tough to put him on a hand he likes as much as this one that doesn't beat you though.

Before you posted the results I thought he had 55.
He clearly had strength on the flop after observing his entire line.

I don't get people saying this looks like a typical set line. It doesn't. I'm not saying you can't play a set this way, and in fact, it would often be smart to play it this way, but how often do people checkraise the river with premium hands? Not often.

Also, IMO, this hand was well-played by both hero and villain.

we play goot

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

we play goot

Stupid fish need to quit drawing against my six four offs00t.

id like a KJ/JT hand type here, never thought of 45 tbh.
Id bet have bet $15 on the river, folding to a reraise as a jack calls and a better hand than us c/r's

bleh, i just went +1 on the post count.

I don't think it's a typical set line but it's a line of someone who flopped something g00t.

The line of someone with something good would be bet, bet, bet or bet, check/raise, not bet/bet/check. I usually take river checks at face value.

Originally Posted by Fnord

MP is the table sucker, too aggressive, calls too much. ETA of about 1-4 orbits until he loses the rest of his stack.

Nice.

Preflop is meh, but I don't hate it if you have the right players to your left. Position on horrible players with lots of money behind = fun.

Flop I do hate to be honest. Solid tagg leads into 2 players, one of which calls way too much and the other who he's been tangling with a bit. There's a reason you limped 64o preflop, and this isn't it.

I like the turn call. This is definately a spot where we need to excersize some pot control.

Given that he checks the river, I tend to think you're 2 pair is almost always good here. If I had to guess an exact hand to put him on, it would probably be QJ/AJ. Other possibilities are verious 2 pair hands, of which 45 is probably the most likely (he's in the BB, but I tend to think players would be more likely to vb J5/J4 here then 45). Depending on how he plays draws in spots like this, maybe 67.

I'd probably just make it $20 or so here. I have a lot of reasons for this, but my biggest concern with that bet size is that it's hard for worse hands to call in theory. btw I hate betting 1/3 pot or whatever here. In fact, I'd cry if we ever bet less then 1/2 pot in this spot.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Preflop is meh, but I don't hate it if you have the right players to your left. Position on horrible players with lots of money behind = fun.

Yeah, I need to learn to slow down and play 6 max more often. Was a nice break from 9/18 and 200 full.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

CO ($63.90)
Button ($23.40)
SB ($118.80)
Fnord ($154.65)
UTG ($32.35)
MP ($106)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with , .
3 folds, Button raises to $2, SB calls $1.50, Fnord calls $1.

Flop: ($6) , , (3 players)
SB bets $3, Fnord raises to $9, Button raises all-in, SB calls $18.40, Fnord raises to $152.65, SB calls $95.40 (All-In).

Turn: ($287.85) (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($287.85) (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $287.85

Results in white below:
SB has 7h 6d (one pair, queens).
Fnord has 4s 5d (two pair, queens and fives).
Button has Jh Qd (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: Button wins main, Fnord wins side.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($106.95)
BB ($42.75)
Fnord ($250.10)
MP ($50.90)
Button ($155)

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with , .
Fnord raises to $3, 3 folds, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($6.50) , , (2 players)
BB bets $39.75 (All-In), Fnord calls $39.75.

Turn: ($86) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($86) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $86

Results in white below:
BB has 4d Td (flush, king high).
Fnord has Ts Ks (one pair, kings).
Outcome: BB wins $86.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($106.45)
MP ($83.50)
Fnord ($213.65)
SB ($47.90)
BB ($151.20)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with , .
1 fold, MP raises to $4, Fnord raises to $12, 2 folds, MP calls $8.

Flop: ($25.50) , , (2 players)
MP bets $4, Fnord raises to $201.65, MP calls $67.50 (All-In).

Turn: ($298.65) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($298.65) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $298.65

Results in white below:
MP has Jc Kc (one pair, jacks).
Fnord has Ah As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins $298.65.

MP bets $4, Fnord raises to $201.65

i absofuckinglutly love this line.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

MP bets $4, Fnord raises to $201.65

i absofuckinglutly love this line.

He called with TPGK too! How the fuck are you supposed to win money with big draws when they make calls like that?!?!?

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

MP bets $4, Fnord raises to $201.65

i absofuckinglutly love this line.

He called with TPGK too! How the fuck are you supposed to win money with big draws when they make calls like that?!?!?

dont push rofl

i guess villain had 45

about 24 hrs too late

gg me

[quote="Fnord"]

Originally Posted by Lukie

SB bets $3, Fnord raises to $9, Button raises all-in, SB calls $18.40, Fnord raises to $152.65, SB calls $95.40 (All-In).

--King Priceless. Where the hell do you find these guys?

he makes them. Instead of nutpeddling like other pokerstars players, he actively invests in changing the ways his opponents play against him.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

he makes them. Instead of nutpeddling like other pokerstars players, he actively invests in changing the ways his opponents play against him.

Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Seriously, I think you mean "he buys them". With money. Reminds me a bit of the ripp in an R&A. Any guidelines for controlling your losses when you're making the investment? I mean, I've read super/system, ...

*shrug* those guys were all pretty big suckers. On one of those tables I dropped $80 to the sucker between a fast AK and a 3-outed KK.

Hand 1: I put the short-buy on a big pair on the flop probably AA/KK/AQ/KQ. The lead into strength then double cold call just SCREAMED draw. Bottom 2 pair looks really good and pushing is really my best play against a flush draw, because he's not making a terrible mistake calling anything less than that once he calls the first push as I'd really like to maximize my chances winning the main pot. This guy also so much as said he was on tilt. He tanked for a few seconds, then made the terrible call.

Hand 2: Loose call on my part. Short money and this guy was doing shit like re-raising pre-floip with Q4s and bumping up any pot to $4 when limped to. He clearly wanted to gamble and I decided to gamble with him.

Hand 3: Key here is that it's the same opponent as hand 2. We've established that he likes to play draws fast, so the weak lead (which he hadn't been doing much of) signaled he had a piece. JTx two tone is a really nasty board to play multiple streets on with a big pair and there is a lot of money in the pot. Also, people tend to interpret your actions in the framework they play under. So I swung for fences here and represented a semi-bluff over-bet push. I seemed to remember these getting called a lot anyway, so I may as well get called with Aces.