sets of eights

Two hands that´s been bugging me some, really don´t know if my plays here are +ev...

1:
Villain is new to the table, so am I, no real reads yet.

PokerStars Game #6864922741: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/11/02 - 12:45:49 (ET)
Table 'Hilaritas' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: ffl1965 ($50 in chips)
Seat 2: internettech ($75.90 in chips)
Seat 3: KRS414 ($51.20 in chips)
Seat 4: Legend999 ($17.15 in chips)
Seat 5: tsube ($51.40 in chips)
Seat 6: MelMel77 ($8.75 in chips)
Seat 8: KingKnig ($30.65 in chips)
Seat 9: Islander828 ($55.25 in chips)
KRS414: posts small blind $0.25
Legend999: posts big blind $0.50
ffl1965: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KRS414 [8d 8s]
tsube: folds
MelMel77: folds
KingKnig: raises $1.50 to $2
Islander828: folds
ffl1965: calls $1.50
internettech: folds
KRS414: calls $1.75
Legend999: folds
*** FLOP *** [4c As 8c]
KRS414: bets $6.50
KingKnig: folds
ffl1965: calls $6.50
*** TURN *** [4c As 8c] [4h]
KRS414: checks
ffl1965: bets $12
KRS414: calls $12
*** RIVER *** [4c As 8c 4h] [Ah]
KRS414: checks
ffl1965: bets $20
KingKnig said, "ur 8's got scrwd"
KRS414: folds
ffl1965 collected $41.40 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $43.50 | Rake $2.10
Board [4c As 8c 4h Ah]
Seat 1: ffl1965 collected ($41.40)
Seat 2: internettech (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: KRS414 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 4: Legend999 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: tsube folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: MelMel77 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: KingKnig folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Islander828 folded before Flop (didn't bet)



2:
This is like the seventh or ninth hand, no radar on Fulthrotle17 yet.

PokerStars Game Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/11/09 - 19:07:23 (ET)
Table 'Spica III' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Leafs98 ($8.25 in chips)
Seat 2: Edjon ($63.15 in chips)
Seat 3: Mattwg ($52.50 in chips)
Seat 4: KRS414 ($50.70 in chips)
Seat 5: wagsbegone ($62.05 in chips)
Seat 6: zippylin ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 7: IndScott ($19.85 in chips)
Seat 8: watchman5677 ($49.25 in chips)
Seat 9: fulthrotle17 ($59.70 in chips)
fulthrotle17: posts small blind $0.25
Leafs98: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KRS414 [8c 8s]
Edjon: folds
Mattwg: folds
KRS414: calls $0.50
wagsbegone: folds
zippylin: folds
IndScott: folds
watchman5677: folds
fulthrotle17: raises $1.50 to $2
Leafs98: folds
KRS414: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [8d Kh Jd]
fulthrotle17: bets $3
KRS414: raises $6 to $9
fulthrotle17: raises $14 to $23
KRS414: calls $14
*** TURN *** [8d Kh Jd] [Th]
fulthrotle17: bets $34.70 and is all-in
KRS414: calls $25.70 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [8d Kh Jd Th] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
fulthrotle17: shows [As Ts] (three of a kind, Tens)
KRS414: shows [8c 8s] (a full house, Eights full of Tens)
KRS414 collected $98.90 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $101.90 | Rake $3
Board [8d Kh Jd Th Td]
Seat 1: Leafs98 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Edjon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Mattwg folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: KRS414 showed [8c 8s] and won ($98.90) with a full house, Eights full of Tens
Seat 5: wagsbegone folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: zippylin folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: IndScott folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: watchman5677 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: fulthrotle17 (small blind) showed [As Ts] and lost with three of a kind, Tens


BTW, sorry if it looks messy, kinda new to this, but I hope you can read it all...
Any comments would be nice. On a side note, I just started playing cash game after a few years of just app. 10$ SnG´s, so I´m trying to adjust.
Thanks in advance!

Hand 1 - you check the turn to induce a bet (hopefully that's why you did it). He fires. Depending on reads, calling and raising here can be argued. I don't hate how the hand was played, but that river is def a fold. Not much to be done there.

Hand 2 - When he comes back over the top on the flop, push. Half his stack is already in there. Pursade him to put the rest in.

1. Raise Turn. Fold River. I think a case can be made for folding preflop as well. Do you call that raise if there's no additional caller?
2. The only problem with your line might be that a scare card could come on the turn & you'd lose your action.

I think a case can be made for folding preflop as well

What were you smoking this morning?

stop slowplaying.

Dont fold pocket 8's preflop regardless. Nice bet out, go for the check raise on the turn, you set that up perfectly. If a club hits the river, you probly loose your action.

On second hand, I like it. When he reraises the flop, you should probly just push, you dont really wanna see anymore paint hit. just calling there isnt bad tho, if you wanna get it in on the turn. His play looks like AK or AA, or even a bigger set that you'll pay off here. Nice job, bad beat.

Originally Posted by gametight

On second hand, I like it. When he reraises the flop, you should probly just push, you dont really wanna see anymore paint hit. just calling there isnt bad tho, if you wanna get it in on the turn. His play looks like AK or AA, or even a bigger set that you'll pay off here. Nice job, bad beat.

I´m sorry? Bad beat for
him? Or do you mean my first hand, that might have been a bad beat?

As for Miffed´s reply, stop slowplaying. I never do it, unless I hit a nice-looking house on, say, turn. The reason of course being the risk of being drawn out on. But this hand? Is it really stupid to slowplay, fearing another A on river?

Originally Posted by AHiltz

I think a case can be made for folding preflop as well

What were you smoking this morning?

Original PFR has only $30. If there was no caller in front I think this is an auto-fold. I think a case can be made for folding b/c you probably aren't very likely to stack the caller in front, and the PFR isn't deep enough to call his raise regularly.

Originally Posted by gametight

Dont fold pocket 8's preflop regardless.

Original PFR has only $30. If there was no caller in front I think this is an auto-fold.

Originally Posted by flashgordon

As for Miffed´s reply, stop slowplaying. I never do it, unless I hit a nice-looking house on, say, turn. The reason of course being the risk of being drawn out on. But this hand? Is it really stupid to slowplay, fearing another A on river?

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

a scare card could come on the turn (or river) & you'd lose your action.

Also, you need to build a big pot before you can win one usually.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Original PFR has only $30. If there was no caller in front I think this is an auto-fold.

$2 X 15= $30. That's more than enough. I call this everytime.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Original PFR has only $30. If there was no caller in front I think this is an auto-fold.

$2 X 15= $30. That's more than enough. I call this everytime.

What am I missing here? I was under the impression that you should only be set-hunting vs. full-ish stacks when there is a real PFR.

Generally accepted rule of thumb is that you need 10x the original PFR behind to call. 8x is even suggested as sufficient. Discussion on here has revolved around 10x probably being way too low, and that 15X is probably a better standard. Some have even suggested 20x, but I think that's far too high.

There's a thread around here somewhere...

Originally Posted by Warpe

Generally accepted rule of thumb is that you need 10x the original PFR behind to call. 8x is even suggested as sufficient. Discussion on here has revolved around 10x probably being way too low, and that 15X is probably a better standard. Some have even suggested 20x, but I think that's far too high.

There's a thread around here somewhere...

ah yes. i'm a follower of the 20x rule for the most part. that's why there's confusion.

stop being a pussy, raise a fucking boat.

Originally Posted by flashgordon

Originally Posted by gametight

On second hand, I like it. When he reraises the flop, you should probly just push, you dont really wanna see anymore paint hit. just calling there isnt bad tho, if you wanna get it in on the turn. His play looks like AK or AA, or even a bigger set that you'll pay off here. Nice job, bad beat.

I´m sorry? Bad beat for
him? Or do you mean my first hand, that might have been a bad beat?

As for Miffed´s reply, stop slowplaying. I never do it, unless I hit a nice-looking house on, say, turn. The reason of course being the risk of being drawn out on. But this hand? Is it really stupid to slowplay, fearing another A on river?

Scratch that, I misread. Thought he showed KT on the second hand. But, ya, no need to slowplay. Get it in on the flop. Nice work.

As for set hunting, I like the 10x rule. Not only that, but unless the original raiser is waaaaaay tight, you probly have the BEST hand! Why you would lay down here is beyond me. Then again, I like to play a lot of pots, maybee its just me. So calling an extra 1.50 when hes 30 deep is pretty standard I think. Nice work man.

Flop a set 1 out of 8 times. $2 (4BB's) x 8 = $16. So you must win at least $16 (32BB's) each time you hit to break even. If it's just heads up I'm not sure if this is happening often enough to be profitable. I'm not saying it doesn't happen enough...just that I'm not really sure. What makes this profitable vs. full stacks is that when you stack them for 100BB's that covers a lot of ground. I think the 10x rule is pretty insane though. If you are regularly calling 10BB PFR's against fellow full stacks you are paying a pretty penny. At this level that would be a $5 PFR. So $5 x 8 = $40. So you'd have to make 80BB's each time you hit just to break even.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Original PFR has only $30. If there was no caller in front I think this is an auto-fold.

$2 X 15= $30. That's more than enough. I call this everytime.

What am I missing here? I was under the impression that you should only be set-hunting vs. full-ish stacks when there is a real PFR.

You are missing the point that a half stack is going busto on a tp hand versus our set if we let him get commited by betting the turn as well with his tp hand.
FWIW, my sets nearly always get paid versus half buy ins who raise preflop because their stack dictates they get stuck to tp and that buying short they suck anyway and dont know how to fold AK versus a turn c/r all in on a drawless board.

Fnord bangs on about it a lot, but picking the correct players to play with is much more important than actually flopping the set/monster hand.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Flop a set 1 out of 8 times. $2 (4BB's) x 8 = $16. So you must win at least $16 (32BB's) each time you hit to break even. If it's just heads up I'm not sure if this is happening often enough to be profitable. I'm not saying it doesn't happen enough...just that I'm not really sure. What makes this profitable vs. full stacks is that when you stack them for 100BB's that covers a lot of ground. I think the 10x rule is pretty insane though. If you are regularly calling 10BB PFR's against fellow full stacks you are paying a pretty penny. At this level that would be a $5 PFR. So $5 x 8 = $40. So you'd have to make 80BB's each time you hit just to break even.

Am I just ignorant or does 88 have more than set value!?

It's like one of the top ten hands rite (AA KK QQ JJ AKs TT AKo 99 88 AQs)? Why do we fold to a standard PFR? Re-raising is a better choice than folding, although I call also

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Flop a set 1 out of 8 times. $2 (4BB's) x 8 = $16. So you must win at least $16 (32BB's) each time you hit to break even. If it's just heads up I'm not sure if this is happening often enough to be profitable. I'm not saying it doesn't happen enough...just that I'm not really sure. What makes this profitable vs. full stacks is that when you stack them for 100BB's that covers a lot of ground. I think the 10x rule is pretty insane though. If you are regularly calling 10BB PFR's against fellow full stacks you are paying a pretty penny. At this level that would be a $5 PFR. So $5 x 8 = $40. So you'd have to make 80BB's each time you hit just to break even.

Am I just ignorant or does 88 have more than set value!?

It's like one of the top ten hands rite (AA KK QQ JJ AKs TT AKo 99 88 AQs)? Why do we fold to a standard PFR? Re-raising is a better choice than folding, although I call also

what other value does it have? surely you're not playing for a weak overpair.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Flop a set 1 out of 8 times. $2 (4BB's) x 8 = $16. So you must win at least $16 (32BB's) each time you hit to break even. If it's just heads up I'm not sure if this is happening often enough to be profitable. I'm not saying it doesn't happen enough...just that I'm not really sure. What makes this profitable vs. full stacks is that when you stack them for 100BB's that covers a lot of ground. I think the 10x rule is pretty insane though. If you are regularly calling 10BB PFR's against fellow full stacks you are paying a pretty penny. At this level that would be a $5 PFR. So $5 x 8 = $40. So you'd have to make 80BB's each time you hit just to break even.

Am I just ignorant or does 88 have more than set value!?

It's like one of the top ten hands rite (AA KK QQ JJ AKs TT AKo 99 88 AQs)? Why do we fold to a standard PFR? Re-raising is a better choice than folding, although I call also

what other value does it have? surely you're not playing for a weak overpair.

I can't see what's wrong with playing for a weak overpair as well, in fact a T-high flop is fine.. In a a raised pot, idiots often go a bit insane with missed broadways, esp. AK. Although I wouldn't advocate this play unless you know for a fact that your opponents are the stupid tricky type to call with big pairs preflop.

Originally Posted by Ash256

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Flop a set 1 out of 8 times. $2 (4BB's) x 8 = $16. So you must win at least $16 (32BB's) each time you hit to break even. If it's just heads up I'm not sure if this is happening often enough to be profitable. I'm not saying it doesn't happen enough...just that I'm not really sure. What makes this profitable vs. full stacks is that when you stack them for 100BB's that covers a lot of ground. I think the 10x rule is pretty insane though. If you are regularly calling 10BB PFR's against fellow full stacks you are paying a pretty penny. At this level that would be a $5 PFR. So $5 x 8 = $40. So you'd have to make 80BB's each time you hit just to break even.

Am I just ignorant or does 88 have more than set value!?

It's like one of the top ten hands rite (AA KK QQ JJ AKs TT AKo 99 88 AQs)? Why do we fold to a standard PFR? Re-raising is a better choice than folding, although I call also

what other value does it have? surely you're not playing for a weak overpair.

I can't see what's wrong with playing for a weak overpair as well, in fact a T-high flop is fine.. In a a raised pot, idiots often go a bit insane with missed broadways, esp. AK. Although I wouldn't advocate this play unless you know for a fact that your opponents are the stupid tricky type to call with big pairs preflop.

under normal circumstances you shouldn't be looking to play a big pot with 88 as an overpair

88 is an auto-call there. If big cards flop I want reads or a set to show down. If small cards flop and there is a draw I'll very often be aggro versus his draw or his AK/AQ when he thinks I'm drawing. If he has a bigger pair, meh.

With a caller in between, calling is definitely a no brainer.

a bit off topic, but...

how did kingking know that you had pocket 8s on the first hand?