Suited trash on the button, post-flop

$5/$10 $500 buy-in

2 terrible players limp, I play my button with :Js:

~$40 in the pot.
Flop is
:Qs:

One of the limpers (over $1k, I cover) bets out $25. This could be a lot of stuff, including air. However, he's really stubborn post-flop.

What's our plan?

what is your image this time?

i would raise, buy a turn free card which i'll take, and not be too unhappy about folding to a reraise.

even though he's stubborn, he's folding some, but raising is still good because it allows us to build a pot with deep stacks in case we hit, at which point we'll probably get paid given your read.

If they're that bad I wont raise and I'll draw for cheap and expect to get paid when I hit. Raising a worse flush draw out here would be criminal.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

If they're that bad I wont raise and I'll draw for cheap and expect to get paid when I hit.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Raising a worse flush draw out here would be criminal.

please explain

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Raising a worse flush draw out here would be criminal.

please explain

cuz you will surely get a stack if you both hit?

I don't think worse fds make up a big part of his range... I'm more concerned about getting it in with his one pair hands that would still stack when we hit.

its not as if we have the nfd here

Originally Posted by Renton

its not as if we have the nfd here

no sense in building pot for better FDs that aren't folding (again, they're bad). River bluffs might work against these guys if they bet/bet/check.

all i'm saying is that the fact that our flush draw isn't all that great makes it more of a raise than if it were the nfd.

Originally Posted by Renton

all i'm saying is that the fact that our flush draw isn't all that great makes it more of a raise than if it were the nfd.

its not that bad of a draw, its the 3rd NFD and more worse ones out there than good ones.

I generally dont like to raise retards on draws no matter how strong they are, as they'll pay off a lot more with TP the deeper into the hand they get.

Originally Posted by Deanglow

what is your image this time?

Kinda tight, been seen going in a little light. Running kinda bad but just felted KJs TP for over $600 against a player who was retarded enough that I had to felt it. I'm almost unstuck for the day, lol.

My flop play:
I raised to $75, hoping to blow him off of maybe middle/bottom pair kinda stuff and set-up a big pot I can value bet into if I hit. He calls.

$190 in the pot
Turn is:
:Ac:
He donks $50, now what?

edit: Fixed the turn card.

Call. Your pot odds are great and according to your read + flop action, you have close to zero FE.

he has a queen and is never folding

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Call. Your pot odds are great and according to your read + flop action, you have close to zero FE.

that ^

those

I called.

$390 in the pot
River is:
:Jc:

He bets another $50, are we buying him dinner?

Seems like weaksauce given the pot size but I don't know how these games play. I want to raise but calling isn't bad.

gross spot

fold or raise to $350.

Previous action says you're probably beat, but you've got something and it's megacheap, so I'd just call.

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

fold or raise to $350.

its definitely call or fold imo

I think a case could be made for calling, folding and raising, depending on more specific reads.

Is he weak leading the river because he has nothing, or cause he's got a queen and is scared of the ace? How scared is he of that ace, and is he capable of laying down a queen with an ace over, given your tight image? Then again, if he's terrible as in "station terrible", then a raise is probably bad.

Is he stubborn as in can't give up on a draw hand that missed and MUST take a weak stab? Call seems ok here then given how infrequently we've gotta be ahead to make this call profitable.

Even if he's a classic station making a weak-fear bet on the river with a Q, he probably shows up with a missed FD, or air enough times that a call has at least some slim value. That's my default play without a better read, but I am known for being a payoff bitch on the river.

call. odds are great. he could have fd.