time to gambool?????

Villain was pretty solid TAG, his reraise told me AA/KK/AK/QQ, so figured what I was up against. Preflop call may be a bit loose, but I was looking exactly for the flop I got, and if i didn't get it, I was out of there. I figure I had 3 straight outs, 8 flush outs, plus one out to the straight flush....Do you gambool? I ran it through pokerstove and figure I had 40% equity after the flop....

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.50 NL (real money), hand #722,482,826
Table Entebbe, 15 Jul 2006 2:06 PM ET

Seat 1: mjschell [ KS,QS ] ($41.25 in chips)
Seat 2: CokeyRedBull ($21.85 in chips)
Seat 3: heila ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 4: DMartinez ($15.65 in chips)
Seat 5: coonja ($18.10 in chips)
Seat 7: ALB7844 ($24.45 in chips)
Seat 8: spitstickler ($28.30 in chips)
Seat 9: loandoctorx ($34.80 in chips)
Seat 10: ShadowKnows5 ($24.10 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
loandoctorx posts blind ($0.15), ShadowKnows5 posts blind ($0.25).

PRE-FLOP
mjschell bets $1, CokeyRedBull bets $3, heila folds, DMartinez folds, coonja folds, ALB7844 folds, spitstickler folds, loandoctorx folds, ShadowKnows5 folds, mjschell calls $2.

FLOP [board cards 10S,KC,9S ]
mjschell bets $4, CokeyRedBull bets $18.85 and is all-in, mjschell bites his lip andcalls $14.85.

TURN [board cards 10S,KC,9S,JD ]

RIVER [board cards 10S,KC,9S,JD,2S ]

SHOWDOWN
CokeyRedBull shows [ KD,KH ]
mjschell shows [ KS,QS ]
mjschell wins $43.60.

SUMMARY
Dealer: spitstickler
Pot: $44.10, (including rake: $0.50)
mjschell bets $21.85, collects $43.60, net $21.75
CokeyRedBull loses $21.85
heila loses $0
DMartinez loses $0
coonja loses $0
ALB7844 loses $0
spitstickler loses $0
loandoctorx loses $0.15
ShadowKnows5 loses $0.25

With that equity, yea, gambool.

fold preflop, not close. KQs plays pretty bad to QQ+, AK type range, and you're out of position to boot.

On the flop I'd probably c/r allin. You're not really concerned about giving a free card, you get the max out of QQ, and it's possible you can get him off AK.

Kinda hard to figure out how many outs you have b/c you don't know if your 2p/trips outs our good, he may have a redraw, etc. But you have a lot against his range, which is what's important . Also, don't count the straight flush out as an out if you've already counted your flush and straight outs...

and by kqs plays pretty bad to a QQ+, AK type range, i mean it plays so horrendously awful it boggles my mind why you'd even consider it, especially given that you're out of position.

Being dominated 100% of the time sucks. Also, even if you outflop him and you're sure if it (rare), with a hand like KQs it's always going to be a very scary board. Ie QQx, KKx, KQx, AJT, etc.

Even if you know you are check/folding the flop if you don't pick up a power draw and you know you are against a high PP so it's easy to get away from? OOP sux I agree...


I counted the J spades as an out all by itself, that's why i said 8 flush outs and 3 str8 outs

Yeah, that draw enables you to play for stacks it's one of the best possible boards for KQs but long term most flops will be junk or K/Q high where overpairs and TPTK's pwn you by heads-up domination. Even with top two you can't be so confident, 2 possible sets in his range and AA isn't way behind, it has counterfeiting redraws like pairing 3rd card or runner runner pair.

It's one of the time where being a nit is a money-saver.

Sure, if you get in 40% equity with dead money its slightly +EV. But the problem is you aren't looking for slight +EV. You are looking to make up for the preflop loss and to pay off your implied odds. Getting all in as a coinflip doesn't even come close to making this up.

BTW check push is better than bet call.

whip over 87s here and youve done it right. KQ is murderd against a reraise preflop range.

You gambooled preflop so when you hit a good draw on the flop sure why not? After all poker is just a 100% gamble, right?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

whip over 87s here and youve done it right. KQ is murderd against a reraise preflop range.

I disagree. Against this guy's range I'd RATHER have 87s then KQs, that seems fairly obvious, but it would still be a very poor call preflop.

ouch, i just peeked at the stack sizes.

you have your self a clear and present fold preflop there my friend. You can't even call profitably with a pocket pair, much less a suited connector.

could you elaborate? Factoring in stack sizes is something I need to work on. I had to call $2 dollars preflop and he had 9X that behind.

I do get the part about 87s vs QKs, KQ easily dominated and if you play 87, you are competing for different cards than he is.

I disagree. Against this guy's range I'd RATHER have 87s then KQs, that seems fairly obvious, but it would still be a very poor call preflop.

We could argue this all day, ill just satisfy it with 'Ill agree to disagree on this point' (when he doesnt have only 50bbs behind)

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

could you elaborate? Factoring in stack sizes is something I need to work on. I had to call $2 dollars preflop and he had 9X that behind.

I do get the part about 87s vs QKs, KQ easily dominated and if you play 87, you are competing for different cards than he is.

5/10 rule:

If you are in position and looking to call a raise with a weak hand (suited connector, small pair) in order to exploit implied odds and your positional advantage, you have a clear call if the bet is less than 5% of the effective stack, a clear fold if its more than 10% of the effective stack, and between 5% and 10% is a judgement call (err toward caution when possible).

The 5/10 rule applies to unpaired drawing hands IN POSITION ONLY, and to paired hands in any position (since position is somewhat irrelevant when you flop a lock hand).



In otherwords, if you make a call like this with KQs, at least have position and deeper stacks. Even then its often hard to extract +EV.

Okay, so villain needed to have a stack as big as me to pull this off successfully. Right? AND I needed to be in position....

Also, one other question, check/push is better than bet/call because that might give me a touch of fold equity (unless he has the nuts on the flop, which he did), right? Meaning I might be able to push QQ/AK/AA off the hand?

Thanks....

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

Okay, so villain needed to have a stack as big as me to pull this off successfully. Right? AND I needed to be in position....

Also, one other question, check/push is better than bet/call because that might give me a touch of fold equity (unless he has the nuts on the flop, which he did), right? Meaning I might be able to push QQ/AK/AA off the hand?

Thanks....

if pots get this big its rarely ever good to call. Your either open pushing or c/r ing all in, or at least thats how i play it.
If you want your opponent to make a mistake or fold, then make them make the biggest ine as often in reraised pots nobody is folding (unless its clear you sucked out on the flop)

I think between the two, c/r all in is the one I like better....

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I disagree. Against this guy's range I'd RATHER have 87s then KQs, that seems fairly obvious, but it would still be a very poor call preflop.

We could argue this all day, ill just satisfy it with 'Ill agree to disagree on this point' (when he doesnt have only 50bbs behind)

Ok so we're deeper.

Villain's range is QQ+, AK, give or take.

Why is KQs better then 87s?

I'll take 87s because it offers more drawing possibilities, and the rare time that we do outflop his range, it's not a shit scary board if he has something like TPTK or an overpair.

As far as the hand in discussion goes, either hand is a clear fold and it's not close, I don't see how that is debatable. They're about 80bb deep also.

If the guy is a 45/20, and you are in position, is it an okay PF call then?