Too weak?

PokerStars Game #5674116448: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/07/25 - 02:00:06 (ET)
Table 'Eureka' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: straitarm ($24.10 in chips)
Seat 2: Ben Yao123 ($47.95 in chips)
Seat 3: prophesized ($34.40 in chips)
Seat 4: random76 ($13.10 in chips)
Seat 5: insertname20 ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 6: budgrace ($25.20 in chips)
Seat 7: tonloc ($13.90 in chips)
Seat 8: ZHampshire ($38.35 in chips)
Seat 9: BankItDrew ($51.40 in chips)
ZHampshire: posts small blind $0.25
BankItDrew: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BankItDrew [ :Qh:]
straitarm: folds
Ben Yao123: folds
prophesized: raises $1 to $1.50
random76: calls $1.50
insertname20: folds
budgrace: calls $1.50
tonloc: folds
ZHampshire: folds
BankItDrew: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [ :Qs: ]
BankItDrew: checks
prophesized: checks
random76: checks
budgrace: bets $1.50
BankItDrew: raises $2.50 to $4
prophesized: folds
random76: calls $4
budgrace: calls $2.50
*** TURN *** [:Kh:]
BankItDrew: checks
random76: bets $7.60 and is all-in
budgrace: calls $7.60
BankItDrew: folds
*** RIVER *** []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
random76: shows [:Ac: ] (high card Ace)
budgrace: shows [ :Qd:] (a pair of Queens)
budgrace collected $31.85 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $33.45 | Rake $1.60
Board [4c Qs 6c Kh 8h]
Seat 1: straitarm folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Ben Yao123 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: prophesized folded on the Flop
Seat 4: random76 showed [Ac 7c] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 5: insertname20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: budgrace showed [5d Qd] and won ($31.85) with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: tonloc (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: ZHampshire (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: BankItDrew (big blind) folded on the Turn

What's your play if the turn is a 2?
Why do you think the K is much worse than a blank given the action so far?

looks like a standard fold to me

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

looks like a standard fold to me

Shallow money, raised pot, draw heavy board. I really hate playing raise for information then get out of dodge games here.

What information do you have on him? This is a fold preflop for me unless

a) Hes a maniac - you cant fold the Q.
b) Hes incredibly tight - You need to hit a monster and you need to have bigger effective stacks to give you implied odds.

I don't think the pre-flop call is out of line, he's getting a cheap flop multi-way closing the action.

1/4-pot c/r is pretty weak.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Shallow money, raised pot, draw heavy board. I really hate playing raise for information then get out of dodge games here.

What's your play on the flop?

Originally Posted by zook

What's your play on the flop?

It depends I don't hate a call. I do hate folding good hands with pot or less behind.

Budgrace is making a very weak bet into the pot from position. He's at a half buy, so felting isn't way out of the question. Yet we'd really like to showdown or at least see what the turn brings. Even show this down cheap. Also, we'd like to know who else is interested in this pot.

The cold call from the quarter buy is very "whatever." Given the flop action, I can't see folding for $7.60 more, it's really the threat of yet another $12 from bud that gives us reason to pause. So what did that flop bet mean?

With position we probably could expect to showdown cheap more often, being out of position will likely leave us in an awkward spot on a big money street, so that also complicates things.

Thanks for all of the input. Nobody has mentioned this yet (other than the non scare card talk), but what do you think of leading with 1/2 on the turn? This would fold the button and commit me and the short staked drawing hand.

You have to decide if you believe you have the best hand or not ON THE FLOP and then build a plan of how to play the hand around that. That means that if (that's a BIG if) you decide to put any more money in on the flop, then you better commit to playing your hand aggressively to protect your hand/equity. This could mean commiting to playing for your whole stack depending on how deep you are, so it's not a decision to be taken lightly. You better be pretty sure you have the best hand (it's hard to back this up with information given your position). If you think about it, it's pretty hard to justify playing this hand for a large pot out of position, but putting that aside for a second ...

As played I like a much larger bet/raise on the flop. There's flush draws and less likely straight draws out there, so you can justify betting a little extra (NLTP). Unless you truely believe the K helped your opp's hand you can't lead check the turn. You have to have the gazoongas to fire out another bet on the turn that's large enough to be treated legitimately, and to protect your hand. The regular relative stack size issues apply of course (if you are both very deep or one of you is shallow, you have to look at this hand differently).

I find that many players (including myself sometimes) divulge their sense of vulnerability in these out of position situations with under sized bets; a sure sign of weakness. I think we all have a hard time betting a large enough amount again on the turn in these out-of-position situations, that's why this hand is so opponent/situation/read dependent. And, that's why it's so much frikin harder to play NL out of position.