What to do with Jakes as an overpair?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP1 ($56.10)
MP2 ($31.81)
MP3 ($38.81)
Hero ($52.30)
Button ($51.75)
SB ($31.37)
BB ($33.10)
UTG ($48.50)
UTG+1 ($50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J. SB posts a blind of $0.25. UTG posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, MP2 raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $2, 3 folds.

Flop: ($4.75) 7, 5, 3 (3 players)
MP2 bets $1, Hero raises to $3, MP2 raises to $8, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($20.75) 7 (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($20.75) 6 (3 players)
MP2 bets $10, Hero ????

No reads. Put him on an overpair with the preflop action and the flop raise. Looking back on it, should I have bet the turn? It puts two clubs on the board, and I'm not too sure that his flop bet might have meant strength... but the river bet seemed like he wanted me to call.

This is a tough one. He may have you beat, but he may be pushing something like 88-TT, or even be a toolbox with AK.

There is a good chance you are beat, but I think you still have to call the bet on the end. You still have a good hand here, and by the way it was played and the weakness you showed on the turn he could be bluffing into you here or merely value betting a hand like TT.

Call it.

After going all that way, you cant put it down now.

Do you have any kind of read on the guy?

Bet that turn and then AI on the river. He won't call. He's got an overpair too but he'll be scared of the 7.

Originally Posted by andr3w321

Bet that turn and then AI on the river. He won't call. He's got an overpair too but he'll be scared of the 7.

I don't like pushing on the river unless I'm pretty sure he doesn't like his hand very much or I think my hand is most likely best.

Betting the turn would have been good, as that was weakness that could have led to a bluff. I really should have called the river bet, as I did have a hand. I'm always wary of half pot bets though.

Anyway, I folded and he showed J8. That stung.

You need to find out if you are up against a bigger pair. There's only one way to do that, reraise PFR. I would have raised him to $4, and if he reraised I would fold. If he calls I would play assuming he has AK or QQ. In either case he will play it slow from that point on because he will put you on a strong pair too. By making that small PFR raise, you would have gotten information to save you a bunch of later bets.

Originally Posted by DimitriT

You need to find out if you are up against a bigger pair. There's only one way to do that, reraise PFR. I would have raised him to $4, and if he reraised I would fold. If he calls I would play assuming he has AK or QQ. In either case he will play it slow from that point on because he will put you on a strong pair too. By making that small PFR raise, you would have gotten information to save you a bunch of later bets.

What other hands do you re-raise PF to find out if you're against AA/KK and does position change anything? I do this play with AK and QQ only, havnt applyed it to JJ.

Originally Posted by SinkRox

What other hands do you re-raise PF to find out if you're against AA/KK and does position change anything? I do this play with AK and QQ only, havnt applyed it to JJ.

QQ is the same for me as JJ. AK, I will call a raise but
I won't usually reraise it.

I MAY do it with TT if we are short handed and from
late position. It works best on a tight table where someone
may put you on a bigger pair and from late position. If
you get called, try to make the set but don't call any raises
on a flop with A, K and maybe Q with a loose plr.

Originally Posted by DimitriT

You need to find out if you are up against a bigger pair. There's only one way to do that, reraise PFR. I would have raised him to $4, and if he reraised I would fold. If he calls I would play assuming he has AK or QQ. In either case he will play it slow from that point on because he will put you on a strong pair too. By making that small PFR raise, you would have gotten information to save you a bunch of later bets.

I'll have to try that.

I think in this hand I set myself up for being dominated in my head. I just called becuase I thought on a raggy flop I've got a good hand, but then realized that I couldn't even be sure of that.

Originally Posted by DimitriT

You need to find out if you are up against a bigger pair. There's only one way to do that, reraise PFR. I would have raised him to $4, and if he reraised I would fold. If he calls I would play assuming he has AK or QQ. In either case he will play it slow from that point on because he will put you on a strong pair too. By making that small PFR raise, you would have gotten information to save you a bunch of later bets.

If you are going to reraise why use so small of a raise?

If I was going to reraise, I would reraise to at least $5 or $6. If he calls, you have to be wary of the overpair. If he reraises much, you can fold.

As the hand stands, I think you have to call. You don't know whether you are paying off a well-played higher overpair or if you are catching a bluff. Either way, you can't ever fold here.

And I hope you added some notes for this guy. The reraise on the flop shows that he is either a nut or testing your limits. You should be more willing to call him down in the future, but be careful.

I'd fold on the flop unless he's known as the type of player to bluff a lot.

Just calling preflop is the right play. Some people think you should reraise preflop with J-J, but I think this is a big mistake. Granted you will find out if he has A-A or K-K, but so what? He'll likely just call with Q-Q, and so you aren't really gaining the information you want, and even if you do find out he doesn't have A-A or K-K, what do you do when an A, K or Q flops (which will happen fairly often)? Suddenly the information you gained is useless, and now you're faced with some difficult decisions as to how you play your hand.

I don't know why you'd reraise preflop with JJ. That, my friends, is a sucker play. You're going to end up with at least one overcard that you're not sure of more often that not. Calling for the set and the possible overpair is the much better move.

The flop usually won't come all unders, but when it does, you need to bet. Lowboy did here, just like he should, raising the piddly little bet. When he's reraised, he has two viable options: fold or reraise, depending on what he thinks his opponent has. Calling out of fear of his opponent holding an even bigger overpair is the worst possible option, because it doesn't TELL you anything, and if you want to get information later, it's going to cost you MORE than reraising now.

If you think you're beat and fold and he shows J 8, then fine; be done with it. If you think your jacks are good, reraise. I don't know WHY you'd call here. All that does is put more of your money in the pot with scant information on your opponents hand, as well as give your opponent the opportunity to bluff you out (as was the case here).

If you think you OWN the other guy and you want to extra more value, that is the ONLY time you should call, because you want to make some value bets on the turn and river that are callable. But with JJ here, there are just so many cards that make your hand weaker than will come on the turn/river that you probably want to take this pot down now.

What should you have done? Reraised the $8 reraise or folded. Personally, I woulda folded, but if I was gonna play my jacks, I would not call.

Thanks ensign... that makes a lot of sense, and I dislike calling bets unless I'm sitting on the nuts. I can't defend my decision to call on the flop, because I'm not drawing and I haven't got a monster. Either I'm beat or I have the best hand at that point, and should make a move either way.

Yeah, thinking over re-raising pre with JJ I've come to the conclusion that it would only be effective IMO if you're trying to rep aces.

Then there are those people who raise AI UTG with JJ only to be called with AA. I got a $35 dollar donation like this in a $50NL game a couple of days ago. I hope he claims it as a tax writeoff.

Originally Posted by Zangief

If you are going to reraise why use so small of a raise?

I think reraising from position with JJ is a sound play but others may disagree. The reasons I want to limit the size of the reraise:

1. I want to get AA and KK to raise more, not just call - this is the standard play for these hands and I need information
2. I want to be able to bet the pot on the flop without committing too many chips. This is what I would normally do if I was checked to on the flop with an A, K or Q showing - represent AK or AQ.

Getting value out of JJ as an overpair is not easy, but it can be done and should be done as part of an aggressive strategy.

Well speak of the devil... this hand just came up today, and I thought I'd try out Dimitri's line on things. I didn't have any reads on him, other than he seemed to have an aggro style.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO ($60.20)
Button ($29.50)
SB ($31.05)
BB ($48.75)
Hero ($45.25)
UTG+1 ($50)
MP1 ($64.65)
MP2 ($154)
MP3 ($103.46)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, J. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $3, 6 folds, Hero raises to $7, MP1 calls $4.

Flop: ($14.75) 9, 6, T (2 players)
Hero bets $10, MP1 raises all-in, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $24.75

After he called my preflop re-raise, I put him on QQ, AK, or possibly even KK/AA. His push on the flop made it an easy fold for me, making me think that I was dealing with QQ.

I apparently almost got him to fold with my flop bet, but he said this afterwards: "I didn't put you on KK or AA so that's why I pushed with my QQ"

If you hadn't reraised, you coulda figured out where you were with less money, but yeah. :P

Originally Posted by ensign_lee

If you hadn't reraised, you coulda figured out where you were with less money, but yeah. :P

I think that runs counter to Dimitri's angle on this one.

If I had called his PF raise, I would have been in a similar situation to my original hand... stuck with a a decent hand that I'm not quite sure of. I suppose then I could have bet $5 on the flop and if he pushed, I could fold. But what if I'm facing a min-raise on my flop bet? Or something just over a min-raise? It's going to be hard to fold that.

Trouble with that hand is you were out of position. Otherwise you played it OK. The $10 flop bet may have been more than I would have come out with on a rags board. I would have bet half the pot $7 and hope that he would fold AK or AQ. QQ would call or raise. With a read you could have even checked the flop.

Originally Posted by DimitriT

Trouble with that hand is you were out of position. Otherwise you played it OK. The $10 flop bet may have been more than I would have come out with on a rags board. I would have bet half the pot $7 and hope that he would fold AK or AQ. QQ would call or raise. With a read you could have even checked the flop.

So it's time to call and set my JJ becuase of position?

I usually bet around 2/3s to 3/4s of the pot if I'm the raiser preflop, just being consistent with that.

Being OOP means you will be paying alot more to make that play, especially against Laggys.

Yes, that makes sense.

I'll give the PFR for info a try when I have position on someone next time.