What's Your Move and Why?

Interesting One. Villain bet my stack amount on the river. I think that's important. Move the post if it's in the wrong place please.


***** Hand History for Game 2713978945 *****
Rondavu2: ouch
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 15749846) - Thu Sep 15 01:54:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 11628 (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: damaru69 (2032)
Seat 3: jarpokergod (1015)
Seat 4: FuqURcoucH2 (410)
Seat 5: Discipline_1 (315)
Seat 8: elizie (1835)
Seat 9: Rondavu2 (840)
Seat 10: gavingar (1553)
elizie posts small blind (50)
Rondavu2 posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Rondavu2 [ 4d, 9d ]
gavingar folds.
damaru69 folds.
jarpokergod folds.
FuqURcoucH2 folds.
Discipline_1 folds.
elizie calls (50)
Rondavu2 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8c, 8h, 4h ]
elizie checks.
Rondavu2 bets (200)
elizie calls (200)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Qc ]
elizie checks.
Rondavu2 checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 5c ]
elizie bets (600)
Rondavu2: geezus

Rondavu2: ????

I'll answer this fine gentleman.

Hey Ron, thanks for posting on this mighty forum. I think you should call this bet because if he had the 8, he would probably raise the flop bet with a flush draw out there. Furthermore, he would probably bet the Q if he caught it for the same reason. When the river popped a blank and he pushed a 600 bet out there, you gotta assume he's either a sly bastard who risked the draw, or flopped a full house which is unlikely since he would have to hold 44 or 84. I think this opponent would either raise 84 or fold it in a blind battle. You got this chump. You're as good as dead if you fold anyway. You're getting 2-1 on your money. I'm pretty sure you have the winning hand. Can you post the results?

Sure thing Ron. Here ya go.

Rondavu2 calls (540)
Rondavu2 is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $1680 with Rondavu2
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1680 | Side Pot 1: 60
Board: [ 8c 8h 4h Qc 5c ]
damaru69 balance 2032, didn't bet (folded)
jarpokergod balance 1015, didn't bet (folded)
FuqURcoucH2 balance 410, didn't bet (folded)
Discipline_1 balance 315, didn't bet (folded)
elizie balance 995, bet 900, collected 60, lost -840 [ Ac Kd ] [ a pair of eights -- Ac,Kd,Qc,8c,8h ]
Rondavu2 balance 1680, bet 840, collected 1680, net +840 [ 4d 9d ] [ two pairs, eights and fours -- Qc,8c,8h,4d,4h ]
gavingar balance 1553, didn't bet (folded)

YES! I knew it. Nice hand dude.

How did you know this wasn't a slowplayed 8? Would opp have not completed 89s or 78s from the small blind here? I have a hard time ever knowing where i'm at when i flop a pair on a board like this when the hand was passive pre flop. Obviously if villain had raised you couldn't put him on an 8. But here he just completes. Nice call by you.

Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU

How did you know this wasn't a slowplayed 8? Would opp have not completed 89s or 78s from the small blind here? I have a hard time ever knowing where i'm at when i flop a pair on a board like this when the hand was passive pre flop. Obviously if villain had raised you couldn't put him on an 8. But here he just completes. Nice call by you.

He'd want to raise to protect his hand on a flush draw board.

Originally Posted by edudlive

Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU

How did you know this wasn't a slowplayed 8? Would opp have not completed 89s or 78s from the small blind here? I have a hard time ever knowing where i'm at when i flop a pair on a board like this when the hand was passive pre flop. Obviously if villain had raised you couldn't put him on an 8. But here he just completes. Nice call by you.

He'd want to raise to protect his hand on a flush draw board.

A lot of fish completely ignore flush and straight draws when they flop three of a kind and still slow-play despite them.

That's why it's so hard to put bad players on a hand sometimes. They make so many blatant mistakes, that you really can't reason through their actions. You can't think, "for what hands does this line of betting make sense?" because oftentimes their betting doesn't even make sense for the cards they're holding.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

A lot of fish completely ignore flush and straight draws when they flop three of a kind and still slow-play despite them.

Are there good players that would also avoid raising this to be extra-deceptive if they have a strong read on your hand? In this case, he can't have a read on you. But in other cases?

Originally Posted by Zangief

Originally Posted by dsaxton

A lot of fish completely ignore flush and straight draws when they flop three of a kind and still slow-play despite them.

Are there good players that would also avoid raising this to be extra-deceptive if they have a strong read on your hand? In this case, he can't have a read on you. But in other cases?

On the contrary, he had a perfect read on me. That's why he tried to strong arm me on the river. I just think he allowed me to also gather a read as he was doing the same. He took too long to develop a read. This is a case of a player knowing what you have, but not respecting that you know what they have.

As for there being lots of fish that would erratically play the hand to deny me a read, I don't worry about them. I just gather reads and make decisions. If it's a fish slowplaying when he shouldn't, then too bad so sad. I didn't think this guy was a fish. It was a $20 tournament, and he had expertly crafted a high stack previous to this hand with solid play. I was actually fortunate to have position on him. I never would have shown down a winning hand without position.