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When keepin it real goes wrong (brilliant, Triptanes)

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  1. #1
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Default When keepin it real goes wrong (brilliant, Triptanes)

    Seat 3: onokine ( $345.10 )
    Seat 4: HUI_Index ( $130.85 )
    Seat 6: chicotime ( $196 )
    Seat 5: nutsinho ( $197.10 )
    Seat 1: asdf808 ( $207.15 )
    Seat 2: takeit68 ( $48 )
    chicotime posts small blind [$1].
    asdf808 posts big blind [$2].
    ** Dealing down cards **
    Dealt to nutsinho [ Js Tc ]
    takeit68 raises [$4].
    onokine folds.
    HUI_Index calls [$4].
    nutsinho calls [$4].
    chicotime folds.
    asdf808 folds.
    ** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, Kc, 3d ]
    takeit68 bets [$6].
    HUI_Index raises [$12].
    nutsinho raises [$28].
    takeit68 folds.
    HUI_Index calls [$16].
    ** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
    HUI_Index checks.
    nutsinho checks.
    ** Dealing River ** [ 9d ]
    HUI_Index bets [$20].
    nutsinho raises [$100].
    HUI_Index is all-In [$78.85]
    nutsinho shows [ Js, Tc ] two pairs, nines and threes.
    HUI_Index shows [ 8c, 7c ] a flush, king high.
    nutsinho wins $1.15 from side pot #1 with two pairs, nines and threes.
    HUI_Index wins $271.70 from the main pot with a flush, king high.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  2. #2
    ...huh?
  3. #3
    Renton's Avatar
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    nh sir

    I think T high wins this pot AT LEAST 50% of the time.
  4. #4
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    I put him on the flush draw when he minraised the flop, so i put in a third bet to isolate.
    Is there something I did wrong in repping a hand that beat a baby flush on a double-paired board?!? (specifically K9/33)
    I had no read that this guy was a moron...
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    I put him on the flush draw when he minraised the flop, so i put in a third bet to isolate.
    Is there something I did wrong in repping a hand that beat a baby flush on a double-paired board?!? (specifically K9/33)
    I had no read that this guy was a moron...
    In your experience, how often do made flushes not call?
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    I put him on the flush draw when he minraised the flop, so i put in a third bet to isolate.
    Is there something I did wrong in repping a hand that beat a baby flush on a double-paired board?!? (specifically K9/33)
    I had no read that this guy was a moron...
    Based on all the play on the hand I could not put you on quads or K9(!!what kind of a hand is that to call even a min raise?). Getting over 3:1 I'm making that call all day long
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred
    Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
  7. #7
    [quote="salsa4ever"]
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho

    Based on all the play on the hand I could not put you on quads or K9(!!what kind of a hand is that to call even a min raise?). Getting over 3:1 in a big pot I'm making that call all day long
    FYP
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    I put him on the flush draw when he minraised the flop, so i put in a third bet to isolate.
    Is there something I did wrong in repping a hand that beat a baby flush on a double-paired board?!? (specifically K9/33)
    I had no read that this guy was a moron...
    Why no bet on the turn? You put him on a flush draw (correctly) and yet you give him a free card. I could understand giving a free card and then bet if he missed, but he hit here and bet into you.

    I don't see him folding here.
  9. #9
    gabe's Avatar
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    if he checks river, i would push, but he bet so i would fold
  10. #10
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    I checked the turn because it was the third club! Are you guys even reading the hand history?

    And gabe, I'd fold if he bet 30 or something but when he bets 20$ into a 74$ pot it makes me think "well my hand isnt that strong but it beats a king with a good kicker so you should call me with that but if you push ill know you have the boat and fold"
    But seriously, he has to call 78 for the 172 in the pot so he's getting closer to 2 to 1 than 3 to 1, and I don't know how you can call with a crappy flush on a board with two pair where i three-bet the flop with a clean image then pushed over his river value-bet...(intelligent) thoughts please?
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  11. #11
    gabe's Avatar
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    yea, just the fact that he bet makes me fold. i dont think fish have a notion on bet size in relation to the pot.

    push when they check to you twice, but don't try to do it against obvious strength. he could have just as easily have a 9 here.

    think...if you had a hand with a 9 in it, wouldn't you push hoping to get a call from the flush?
  12. #12
    LimpinAintEZ's Avatar
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    I don't know how you can call with a crappy flush on a board with two pair where i three-bet the flop with a clean image then pushed over his river value-bet...(intelligent) thoughts please?

    Here is a thought - Maybe your table image isn't quite as good as you think. 1st off, why did you even turn this into a huge pot in the first place? All you had was a gutshot straight draw and your doing all the pushing - Practically any bet into the river by him ($20 is more than enough) should have told you to fold - I like to bluff people also, but you should be giving the guy praise for picking you off when you made a bad play, not criticising him for making a good call - A flush is probably a monster against you if your willing to make those kinda bets into players

    this is your mistake, IMO -

    takeit68 bets [$6].
    HUI_Index raises [$12].
    nutsinho raises [$28].

    a bet and a raise in front of you means something in NL - Your reraising 2 players here with nothing but a gutshot - Not a terrible play, but then you KEEP betting it even though you got called on the flop - Why didn't you just wait for a better spot?
    this space intentionally left blank
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    I checked the turn because it was the third club! Are you guys even reading the hand history?

    And gabe, I'd fold if he bet 30 or something but when he bets 20$ into a 74$ pot it makes me think "well my hand isnt that strong but it beats a king with a good kicker so you should call me with that but if you push ill know you have the boat and fold"
    But seriously, he has to call 78 for the 172 in the pot so he's getting closer to 2 to 1 than 3 to 1, and I don't know how you can call with a crappy flush on a board with two pair where i three-bet the flop with a clean image then pushed over his river value-bet...(intelligent) thoughts please?
    My bad on the turn.

    He is still getting 2.5 -1. You're hand looks like a big king. You put in a big raise on the flop what are you trying to represent? a big king or a set seems most likely. The turn is a 3, and it completes a club draw and makes a boat or quads for 99 ad 33 respectively. If you had one of these why would you not bet here? Any flush pays you off. A big king checks here, your hand looks like a big king on the turn. The river brings a nine, and as villian it doesn't scare me. It seems very unlikley now that you would have 99, 33 is unlikley as well. K9 is a possibility, but that is the only hand I could see with this line.

    Villian bets out and you raise all in. Looks like your hand is a big king that got scared by the flush, then tried to represent a boat. His play isn't that braindead IMO.
  14. #14
    lolzzz_321's Avatar
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    Change post title to: 'When keepin it real goes wrong'
  15. #15
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piratepeaty
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    I checked the turn because it was the third club! Are you guys even reading the hand history?

    And gabe, I'd fold if he bet 30 or something but when he bets 20$ into a 74$ pot it makes me think "well my hand isnt that strong but it beats a king with a good kicker so you should call me with that but if you push ill know you have the boat and fold"
    But seriously, he has to call 78 for the 172 in the pot so he's getting closer to 2 to 1 than 3 to 1, and I don't know how you can call with a crappy flush on a board with two pair where i three-bet the flop with a clean image then pushed over his river value-bet...(intelligent) thoughts please?
    My bad on the turn.

    He is still getting 2.5 -1. You're hand looks like a big king. You put in a big raise on the flop what are you trying to represent? a big king or a set seems most likely. The turn is a 3, and it completes a club draw and makes a boat or quads for 99 ad 33 respectively. If you had one of these why would you not bet here? Any flush pays you off. A big king checks here, your hand looks like a big king on the turn. The river brings a nine, and as villian it doesn't scare me. It seems very unlikley now that you would have 99, 33 is unlikley as well. K9 is a possibility, but that is the only hand I could see with this line.

    Villian bets out and you raise all in. Looks like your hand is a big king that got scared by the flush, then tried to represent a boat. His play isn't that braindead IMO.
    he would have to put me on exactly KJ for any of what you just said to be possible. I would 3bet preflop with KQ+ , call with KTs preflop and muck after two bets on teh flop, fold KTo- and K8s- preflop and 3bet or fold KJ on the flop. So its really unlikely that I ever have a hand worse than a low flush here. I might have a higher flush.

    Limpin, I turned this into a big pot because of a very specific read that i could isolate against a flush draw and play accordingly. Assuming I'm right about this most of the time my play was +EV. And when I said I had a clean image, you need to take what I say and go with it, not accuse me of having an unclean image due to random fallacious assertions you decide to make. I said I had a clean image at the time because I was, in fact, playing ABC poker during the brief time I'd been at the table, making no plays, and did not recognize any of the opponents as possibly being wary of my capabilities.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  16. #16
    I think these people are trying to help you. No need to get defensive, especially when you have no defense.

    You played badly. Regardless of obvious signs that you were beat, you kept pushing.

    Here's a summary in a nutshell.

    When your 2 hole cards do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve your hand, you aren't going to have the better hand with people betting seriously.
    Been playing money poker for 34 years and decided in 2002 to try that TX Holdem game on TV. Then found Pokerstars in Summer 2005. Still not an overall winner but i am on a good trend and nearly there.
  17. #17
    lolzzz_321's Avatar
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    In summary, don't bluff a donk. HE probably doesn't 'put' people on hands, he sees his hand, OMG teh flush, all u can eat babeeeeeeeeeeeey!1!!111!!1!!!
  18. #18
    If you really did have K9, 33, or 99 wouldn't you play this the same way?

    And wouldn't you still expect to get paid off by the flush? If so, why would he lay down his flush now?
  19. #19
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Dave, I clearly do have a defense..you clearly didn't read it
    If you only play for value, then you're not maximizing profit.
    the statement "regardless of obvious signs you were beat, you kept pushing" shows that you are only aware of 1/2 of the ways you can win a hand. The rest of your post indicates that you weren't even aware that I was bluffing-looks like you thought I was pushing for value. YOU play badly-don't get defensive, and you're welcome for the help.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LimpinAintEZ
    I don't know how you can call with a crappy flush on a board with two pair where i three-bet the flop with a clean image then pushed over his river value-bet...(intelligent) thoughts please?
    Fish don't pay attention to image or scare cards. "Me have goot flush, me call". Intricate bluffs like these go way over the heads of unthinking players.

    Also, why are you raising this flop on a gutshot (with 3 clean outs) after a preflop raisor and cold-caller both show so much interest? I'd let my hand go there without a second thought.
    Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    he would have to put me on exactly KJ for any of what you just said to be possible. I would 3bet preflop with KQ+ , call with KTs preflop and muck after two bets on teh flop, fold KTo- and K8s- preflop and 3bet or fold KJ on the flop. So its really unlikely that I ever have a hand worse than a low flush here. I might have a higher flush.
    playing ABC poker during the brief time I'd been at the table,
    You are contradicting yourself.... You fold KTs after 2 bets? You raised with J10! You always raise with KQ+ or everyone raises with KQ+? You fold K10-? You called J10 os! There is no way he can put you on EXACTLY KJ.

    Judging by your posts, you play a high variance style of poker. Sometimes you are going to be called by a better hand when you have J high. Stop treating this like a bad beat, you got called by a better hand.

    Apparently, villans read was correct.
  22. #22
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piratepeaty
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    he would have to put me on exactly KJ for any of what you just said to be possible. I would 3bet preflop with KQ+ , call with KTs preflop and muck after two bets on teh flop, fold KTo- and K8s- preflop and 3bet or fold KJ on the flop. So its really unlikely that I ever have a hand worse than a low flush here. I might have a higher flush.
    playing ABC poker during the brief time I'd been at the table,
    You are contradicting yourself.... You fold KTs after 2 bets? You raised with J10! You always raise with KQ+ or everyone raises with KQ+? You fold K10-? You called J10 os! There is no way he can put you on EXACTLY KJ.

    Judging by your posts, you play a high variance style of poker. Sometimes you are going to be called by a better hand when you have J high. Stop treating this like a bad beat, you got called by a better hand.

    Apparently, villans read was correct.
    I meant to illustrate what I would expect villain to think...

    And BTW, I think JTo plays better than KTo...

    But you do make good points. I just felt like when I haven't been playing out of line this was a really ridiculous call.
    I posted this to see if there was something obviously wrong with my line, but unfortunately most of the posts have only been so insightful as to tell me I should have realized my hand wasn't best. LOL
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    Dave, I clearly do have a defense..you clearly didn't read it
    If you only play for value, then you're not maximizing profit.
    the statement "regardless of obvious signs you were beat, you kept pushing" shows that you are only aware of 1/2 of the ways you can win a hand. The rest of your post indicates that you weren't even aware that I was bluffing-looks like you thought I was pushing for value. YOU play badly-don't get defensive, and you're welcome for the help.
    Uh, no. I don't only play for value.

    I certainly didn't think you felt the hand was valuable. What it looks like to me is you tried a bluff. Got called. Got away easy on turn so you figurred to try again.

    That was silly.
    Been playing money poker for 34 years and decided in 2002 to try that TX Holdem game on TV. Then found Pokerstars in Summer 2005. Still not an overall winner but i am on a good trend and nearly there.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    Dave, I clearly do have a defense..you clearly didn't read it
    If you only play for value, then you're not maximizing profit.
    the statement "regardless of obvious signs you were beat, you kept pushing" shows that you are only aware of 1/2 of the ways you can win a hand. The rest of your post indicates that you weren't even aware that I was bluffing-looks like you thought I was pushing for value. YOU play badly-don't get defensive, and you're welcome for the help.
    Good one. It's been years since i have seen a " I know you are but what am i?" kind of comeback except when i watch PeeWee's Big Adventure with my daughter..

    So you push like a fool after receiving clear signs.

    did you also call the guy a donk? That would be typical of a bad loser and especially typical of a bad loser who KNOWS HE FUCKED UP.
    Been playing money poker for 34 years and decided in 2002 to try that TX Holdem game on TV. Then found Pokerstars in Summer 2005. Still not an overall winner but i am on a good trend and nearly there.
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    I checked the turn because it was the third club! Are you guys even reading the hand history?

    And gabe, I'd fold if he bet 30 or something but when he bets 20$ into a 74$ pot it makes me think "well my hand isnt that strong but it beats a king with a good kicker so you should call me with that but if you push ill know you have the boat and fold"
    But seriously, he has to call 78 for the 172 in the pot so he's getting closer to 2 to 1 than 3 to 1, and I don't know how you can call with a crappy flush on a board with two pair where i three-bet the flop with a clean image then pushed over his river value-bet...(intelligent) thoughts please?
    ok here goes.

    your raise on flop is interesting (read as I think it's stupid) since you got nuthing but a gutshot draw. Perhaps you are trying to make it heads up (and you succeeded) but I must ask... heads up with what? The only thing that I think makes "sense" was that you are trying to intimidate the remaining guy.

    Here comes the turn. You check. So, considerring the only thing that I saw as "sensible" was intimidation, you dropped the ball. Essentially at this point neither knows what the other has and the betting makes it difficult to judge.

    Then comes the river. No help. At All. And you seemed weak on turn. Let's assume that he was also scared by the club and had a pair > deuces (a fair assumption). U were beat if that were the case. Your opponent was NOT dumb to call.

    was that clear enough?
    Been playing money poker for 34 years and decided in 2002 to try that TX Holdem game on TV. Then found Pokerstars in Summer 2005. Still not an overall winner but i am on a good trend and nearly there.
  26. #26
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    you sound like a newb

    roll up out my biznass

    im done with this thread, lock this shit
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  27. #27
    next time you post a hand history i will automatically tell you that you rock and the other guy is a donk then.

    40 yrs old, playing poker since I was 7 for crap money. Not a newb. I am not great either but good enough to observe the obvious.
    Been playing money poker for 34 years and decided in 2002 to try that TX Holdem game on TV. Then found Pokerstars in Summer 2005. Still not an overall winner but i am on a good trend and nearly there.
  28. #28
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    nigga u gots to WRAP IT UP
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  29. #29
    Let me guess, you called the guy a fish and berated him for at least five minutes for his horrible call.
  30. #30
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog
    Let me guess, you called the guy a fish and berated him for at least five minutes for his horrible call.
    i didnt say a word...tables are for playing poker, forums are for discussing poker...
    im going to have to ask once again that people do not make blind accusations criticizing other members of the forum.
    it's extremely uncalled for.
    I already said I'd made my final post in this thread but I was forced to "keep it real" . If I'm flamed again for playing poker rather than the cards in front of me I'll never return to this forum, as the influence of nits who can't think is very -EV.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  31. #31
    gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog
    Let me guess, you called the guy a fish and berated him for at least five minutes for his horrible call.
    i didnt say a word...tables are for playing poker, forums are for discussing poker...
    im going to have to ask once again that people do not make blind accusations criticizing other members of the forum.
    it's extremely uncalled for.
    I already said I'd made my final post in this thread but I was forced to "keep it real" . If I'm flamed again for playing poker rather than the cards in front of me I'll never return to this forum, as the influence of nits who can't think is very -EV.
    whats the EV of trying to push a donk off a flush
  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    Quote Originally Posted by piratepeaty
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    he would have to put me on exactly KJ for any of what you just said to be possible. I would 3bet preflop with KQ+ , call with KTs preflop and muck after two bets on teh flop, fold KTo- and K8s- preflop and 3bet or fold KJ on the flop. So its really unlikely that I ever have a hand worse than a low flush here. I might have a higher flush.
    playing ABC poker during the brief time I'd been at the table,
    You are contradicting yourself.... You fold KTs after 2 bets? You raised with J10! You always raise with KQ+ or everyone raises with KQ+? You fold K10-? You called J10 os! There is no way he can put you on EXACTLY KJ.

    Judging by your posts, you play a high variance style of poker. Sometimes you are going to be called by a better hand when you have J high. Stop treating this like a bad beat, you got called by a better hand.

    Apparently, villans read was correct.
    I meant to illustrate what I would expect villain to think...

    And BTW, I think JTo plays better than KTo...

    But you do make good points. I just felt like when I haven't been playing out of line this was a really ridiculous call.
    I posted this to see if there was something obviously wrong with my line, but unfortunately most of the posts have only been so insightful as to tell me I should have realized my hand wasn't best. LOL
    LOL...

    And I agree J10 usually plays better, and I even like the raise on the flop given your read.

    But on the river you are risking 100 to win 130, You can't win if he calls. He needs to fold ~47% of the time to make this profitable. Does he fold have AND fold a flush that often? Against most players I say 'no'.
  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    i didnt say a word...tables are for playing poker, forums are for discussing poker...
    im going to have to ask once again that people do not make blind accusations criticizing other members of the forum.
    it's extremely uncalled for.

    I already said I'd made my final post in this thread but I was forced to "keep it real" . If I'm flamed again for playing poker rather than the cards in front of me I'll never return to this forum, as the influence of nits who can't think is very -EV.
    If you're not a table coach, I apologize for implying that you are one, but I definitely wasn't the person who initiated the flaming in this thread.
  34. #34
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    "23o plays better than AA, because you usually know where you stand and its easy to fold"

    does that sound right?
  35. #35
    woah... look at the hatin... try to keep it civil.

    I'm I the only one in this thread that thinks this play isn't terrible? Probably why only 7% of all players are long term winners.

    I like the turn raise, based on the read. It is high variance, but +EV. It's also a good metagame play, if all goes wrong. I hate playing strong player that will push me with next to nothing.

    Against a tight player I like the turn push. If he folds more than 47% of the time, it's profitable.

    The play isn't that bad, seriously.
  36. #36
    gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piratepeaty
    I'm I the only one in this thread that thinks this play isn't terrible? Probably why only 7% of all players are long term losers.
    lol
    Quote Originally Posted by piratepeaty
    Against a tight player I like the turn push. If he folds more than 47% of the time, it's profitable.
    where did you get the figure 47% from ? the pot is abuot $70, and the villian has $100 behind, which hero covers. it needs to work alot more than 47% to be profitable.
  37. #37
    Well, yesterday I played a very similar hand against a huge fish, except that I actually did have the full house, and he folded the river which I never thought he would do. So maybe you're right. I probably don't bluff often enough in really big pots (I hardly ever do it).

    I never said the play was terrible, I just don't think "OMG how could this fish call me!!!!" is a very productive way to analyze a hand that you played.
  38. #38
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    I had no read that he was a donk. Whats the EV of trying to push a player who appears solid off a flush here?

    Peaty, again good analysis. Obviously the whole hand played out on reads, and I was very sure that he had a flush based on his river bet rather than a boat. Given the action, a naked 9 or 3 makes very little sense. K9 or quads make sense, but why then is he betting only 27% of the pot on the river? It seems he would try to get more value out of it than that. So basically he's got to fold 47% of the time, and I'd seen nothing donkish from him so I thought it was a good push.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by gabe
    Quote Originally Posted by piratepeaty
    I'm I the only one in this thread that thinks this play isn't terrible? Probably why only 7% of all players are long term losers.
    lol
    Quote Originally Posted by piratepeaty
    Against a tight player I like the turn push. If he folds more than 47% of the time, it's profitable.
    where did you get the figure 47% from ? the pot is abuot $70, and the villian has $100 behind, which hero covers. it needs to work alot more than 47% to be profitable.
    That should say 'winners'.

    I screwed up the math. The pot before villian bets on the river is 74. Then he bets 20, making it 94. So he is risking $100 to win $94. He needs to fold 52% of the time to make this break even. This is how you calculate

    (amount we win) - (amount we lose) = for break even it should equal 0
    (x*94) - (y*100) = 0
    94x = 100y
    0.94x = y
    we also know x+y=1 therefore y = 1-x
    y = the probability we lose
    x = the probability we win
    1.94x=1
    x=51.546%

    Therefore he needs to fold more than 51.54% to make this +EV.
  40. #40
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    "Against a tight player I like the turn push."

    i thought you meant turn push.

    if you meant river push, i dont think a good tight player is ever betting the river without something that can call a raise, unless he is bluffing, which i dont think he is doing 52% of the time.
  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    I had no read that he was a donk. Whats the EV of trying to push a player who appears solid off a flush here?

    Peaty, again good analysis. Obviously the whole hand played out on reads, and I was very sure that he had a flush based on his river bet rather than a boat. Given the action, a naked 9 or 3 makes very little sense. K9 or quads make sense, but why then is he betting only 27% of the pot on the river? It seems he would try to get more value out of it than that. So basically he's got to fold 47% of the time, and I'd seen nothing donkish from him so I thought it was a good push.
    sorry, should be 52%... screwed up the pot size the first time I calculated it. But it doesn't change too much. It still comes down to him having to fold about half the time, which is read dependant. It is high variance as I have said before, but still may be +EV.
  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by gabe
    "Against a tight player I like the turn push."

    i thought you meant turn push.

    if you meant river push, i dont think a good tight player is ever betting the river without something that can call a raise, unless he is bluffing, which i dont think he is doing 52% of the time.
    damn... i'm full of mistakes in this thread.

    yes the river push. I've seen tight players bet fold in this spot.

    oh, and tight doesn't imply good.
  43. #43
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    this play is a great example of why you push made hands hard against donks.
    Saying that im not critical of the hand, only a fucking ejit calls that river with a flush.
    Add to buddy list, carry on.
    You'll make heaps off this guy fo sure

    Lets be honest too, what does he think your three betting on the flop? Ace high?
    Sod the odds and math, opps river call is downright horrible unless he was certain he had you beat and only H@l or a fish with 'TEH FLUSH' knows that through skill or stupidity.
  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog
    Let me guess, you called the guy a fish and berated him for at least five minutes for his horrible call.
    i didnt say a word...tables are for playing poker, forums are for discussing poker...
    im going to have to ask once again that people do not make blind accusations criticizing other members of the forum.
    it's extremely uncalled for.
    I already said I'd made my final post in this thread but I was forced to "keep it real" . If I'm flamed again for playing poker rather than the cards in front of me I'll never return to this forum, as the influence of nits who can't think is very -EV.
    I still stand by my opinion that villain's call is at worst defensible and and best correct.

    Remember *I* don't know that you will 3-bet with KQ or call with K10 or whatever... There are plenty of people who flat call AK and some who raise K10s. Remember you just said you're trying to represent K9.

    The play on all the streets just doesn't look like a 9x or a 3x or K9. And 99 and 33 are unlikely enough I would pay it off with flush getting 2.5-1 odds.

    However, the fact that villain's call was correct does not neccessarily mean the push is incorrect. Remember you can both be correct because of the money already in the pot (e.g. in limit betting increases the equity of the TPTK but calling with the flush draw is still correct). I will not categorically say that your play is wrong, only that I would not make it because it is a huge increase in variance for debatable value. But look at my post and you'll see I never said your bluff was shit
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred
    Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
  45. #45
    I like the play up until the river, which IMO is a real grey area. It needs to be successful a high % of the time (over 50%), which means you're hoping that A. he's not a donk, B. he's not a good player who might suss out your bluff, *and* C. he's not sitting on K9 himself, which is improbable but not impossible. I don't like to make these kinds of moves on players I don't know are thinking, tight players - and they have to be at least some of both. Without a read I am inclined to just drop it.

    Now a few comments for SuperDave:

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperDave9x19
    your raise on flop is interesting (read as I think it's stupid) since you got nuthing but a gutshot draw. Perhaps you are trying to make it heads up (and you succeeded) but I must ask... heads up with what? The only thing that I think makes "sense" was that you are trying to intimidate the remaining guy.
    That's the point he's making. Heads up, with position, against someone you are pretty sure is on a draw is ALWAYS a desirable position to be in - regardless of your hole cards. You are fixated on hero's hole cards which isn't the point at all here. It's well beside the point, in fact. He knows going in that he has at best something like seven clean outs.

    Here comes the turn. You check. So, considerring the only thing that I saw as "sensible" was intimidation, you dropped the ball. Essentially at this point neither knows what the other has and the betting makes it difficult to judge.
    Hero has already stated he put the other guy on a flush draw based on the flop and his min-raise, which means on the turn he puts him on a made flush. Bluffing in that spot is asinine. The ball dropped itself. Hero could have AK or K9 and would still check behind on the turn.

    Then comes the river. No help. At All. And you seemed weak on turn. Let's assume that he was also scared by the club and had a pair > deuces (a fair assumption). U were beat if that were the case. Your opponent was NOT dumb to call.
    That's a bad analysis. First of all, the 9 on the river is no help to what YOU see in the hero's hand, but to an opponent who may put hero on a 9 (e.g. K9) this is a clear scare card. He may still call because he's a donk or call because he smells something rotten in Denmark, but your analysis that the card was "no help at all" is non-insightful; it's helpful in that it may have helped the hand he's repping, and probably didn't help his opponent, who weak-bets the river with what is almost certainly a made flush.

    Second, if you are putting opponent possibly on a pair > deuces (which we know he didn't have, but I'll play along), your analysis is *still* bad. He's ahead of the hero's missed draw, but he doesn't know that's what he has. Against a king, a nine, a three, or any higher pocket pair, he would still be behind. I would venture to say that a call with any pocket pair here except for kings/threes/nines, and maybe aces, would be terrible; and a call with a made flush (what he actually called with) is borderline - based on the hand history, and if we didn't know what the hero held.

    A footnote - without a read, as the hero, I would not raise on the river. But without a read, as the villain, I would also fold the river. I think both players made marginal mistakes on the last street, assuming the information we have here (that the players didn't know each other at all) was correct.
  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    I will not categorically say that your play is wrong, only that I would not make it because it is a huge increase in variance for debatable value.
    It's a cash game. Variance is not an issue.
  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_fish
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    I will not categorically say that your play is wrong, only that I would not make it because it is a huge increase in variance for debatable value.
    It's a cash game. Variance is not an issue.
    Of course, it is a issue (well, to some). Many people don't like playing a high variance style. Many people have a different loss threshold and would prefer a more conservative style. It's also very easy to turn from a high variance style, to plain chip spewing.
  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by piratepeaty
    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_fish
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    I will not categorically say that your play is wrong, only that I would not make it because it is a huge increase in variance for debatable value.
    It's a cash game. Variance is not an issue.
    Of course, it is a issue (well, to some). Many people don't like playing a high variance style. Many people have a different loss threshold and would prefer a more conservative style. It's also very easy to turn from a high variance style, to plain chip spewing.
    CAPM Model: basic tenet of finance is that if I'm going to be taking risk (increasing my variance) then I want some kind of return.

    Remember I am not risk neutral. I'm risk tolerant, but I am not indifferent between a high variance outcome and a low variance outcome IF THE EV IS THE SAME OR VERY CLOSE TO THE SAME. I accept variance AS A NECCESSARY TRADE OFF for making some +EV plays, not because it's not an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred
    Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
  49. #49
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    I still stand by my opinion that villain's call is at worst defensible and at best correct.
    I dont think ive every more vehemently disagreed with any statement.
    This statement is, to me, saying call an all in on a board that has four to a straight with a pair.
  50. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffed22001
    I still stand by my opinion that villain's call is at worst defensible and at best correct.
    I dont think ive every more vehemently disagreed with any statement.
    This statement is, to me, saying call an all in on a board that has four to a straight with a pair.
    If you think villain's call is wrong, then doesn't that make pushing correct? If pushing is correct, doesn't that make villain's call correct?

    You can't look at it in isolation

    If the pairs were AA and KK then of course you're right
    If it's a 200 bet into a 10 pot then yeah
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred
    Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
  51. #51
    Miffed22001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffed22001
    I still stand by my opinion that villain's call is at worst defensible and at best correct.
    I dont think ive every more vehemently disagreed with any statement.
    This statement is, to me, saying call an all in on a board that has four to a straight with a pair.
    If you think villain's call is wrong, then doesn't that make pushing correct? If pushing is correct, doesn't that make villain's call correct?

    You can't look at it in isolation

    If the pairs were AA and KK then of course you're right
    If it's a 200 bet into a 10 pot then yeah
    takeit68 raises [$4].
    onokine folds.
    HUI_Index calls [$4].
    nutsinho calls [$4].
    chicotime folds.
    asdf808 folds.
    ** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, Kc, 3d ]
    takeit68 bets [$6].
    HUI_Index raises [$12].
    nutsinho raises [$28].

    What does that line represent? How often is that top pair and how often is that a set? (consequently how often does that line represent a nut flush draw or air)

    Im enjoying this discussion btw
  52. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffed22001
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffed22001
    I still stand by my opinion that villain's call is at worst defensible and at best correct.
    I dont think ive every more vehemently disagreed with any statement.
    This statement is, to me, saying call an all in on a board that has four to a straight with a pair.
    If you think villain's call is wrong, then doesn't that make pushing correct? If pushing is correct, doesn't that make villain's call correct?

    You can't look at it in isolation

    If the pairs were AA and KK then of course you're right
    If it's a 200 bet into a 10 pot then yeah
    takeit68 raises [$4].
    onokine folds.
    HUI_Index calls [$4].
    nutsinho calls [$4].
    chicotime folds.
    asdf808 folds.
    ** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, Kc, 3d ]
    takeit68 bets [$6].
    HUI_Index raises [$12].
    nutsinho raises [$28].

    What does that line represent? How often is that top pair and how often is that a set? (consequently how often does that line represent a nut flush draw or air)

    Im enjoying this discussion btw
    I couldn't say.

    Obviously OP's play proves that air is always a possibility. But villain should probably have done something other than call with a low flush draw facing a half pot raise and being OOP for the rest of the hand. Villain's flop call sux. Either push it on a semi bluff (which would have won him the hand on the spot) or fold it.

    Given that this is a 200NL 6-max game, I'm beginning to like a flop push holding the low flush draw.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred
    Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
  53. #53
    Miffed22001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffed22001
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffed22001
    I still stand by my opinion that villain's call is at worst defensible and at best correct.
    I dont think ive every more vehemently disagreed with any statement.
    This statement is, to me, saying call an all in on a board that has four to a straight with a pair.
    If you think villain's call is wrong, then doesn't that make pushing correct? If pushing is correct, doesn't that make villain's call correct?

    You can't look at it in isolation

    If the pairs were AA and KK then of course you're right
    If it's a 200 bet into a 10 pot then yeah
    takeit68 raises [$4].
    onokine folds.
    HUI_Index calls [$4].
    nutsinho calls [$4].
    chicotime folds.
    asdf808 folds.
    ** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, Kc, 3d ]
    takeit68 bets [$6].
    HUI_Index raises [$12].
    nutsinho raises [$28].

    What does that line represent? How often is that top pair and how often is that a set? (consequently how often does that line represent a nut flush draw or air)

    Im enjoying this discussion btw
    I couldn't say.

    Obviously OP's play proves that air is always a possibility. But villain should probably have done something other than call with a low flush draw facing a half pot raise and being OOP for the rest of the hand. Villain's flop call sux. Either push it on a semi bluff (which would have won him the hand on the spot) or fold it.

    Given that this is a 200NL 6-max game, I'm beginning to like a flop push holding the low flush draw.
    opp is calling $16 into a ~$60 pot which is pretty good odds to cahse the flush draw. Add to that villain's flop 3 bet suggests escalation here oop with only a draw is going to get messy (or thats my interpretation) as players don go round 3 betting lots even in position without a strong hand.


    What im trying to figure out, for curiositys sake is what you think a flop 3 bet here represents in most cases. Once i know that i can try and understand why you call the river with a flush.
  54. #54
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    sometimes you just know they are bluffing.... villian might not call this everytime, but he thought hero's line didn't look right and that his hand was still good.

    or he misread the board.
  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabe
    sometimes you just know they are bluffing.... villian might not call this everytime, but he thought hero's line didn't look right and that his hand was still good.

    or he misread the board.
    agreed
    im trying to get at the problem of whether of not our opp likes his hand too much or doesnt recogise the line our hero takes though. I mean, how often do we actually call with a flush on a double paired board and how often should we and then add how often can we bluff it as shown above.
    In other words, is it just players who blow who call with a flush here aginst that line or is this just a very good read and call?
    If its just because players suck and will call because 'omg i have a flush!' then i dont like the line or play. However if the line works and this guy sucks then i like it. Im trying to get at why opp calls and if he will keep calling to make this a worthwhile play.

    Can we buy these pots with this line often enough to make it worth the effort against the standard player is i think what im trying to say.
    becuase salsa's opinion of calling this a lot and folding it a little scares me
  56. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by "Miffed22001
    Can we buy these pots with this line often enough to make it worth the effort against the standard player is i think what im trying to say.
    becuase salsa's opinion of calling this a lot and folding it a little scares me
    Most of the time I say, no. Based on my analysis earlier in the thread he needs to fold over half the time to break even. I don't think the 'standard' player does this. I've seen flushes pay off boats far to often on these kinds of boards. Hell... I've paid off a pair of sevens with a bluff, on a board like this. That is why I stopped making plays like this one on the river. I only make it against a player that knows where the fold button is.

    If you bet it, they will call.
  57. #57
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    [quote=piratepeaty]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Miffed22001
    Can we buy these pots with this line often enough to make it worth the effort against the standard player is i think what im trying to say.
    becuase salsa's opinion of calling this a lot and folding it a little scares me

    Most of the time I say, no. Based on my analysis earlier in the thread he needs to fold over half the time to break even. I don't think the 'standard' player does this. I've seen flushes pay off boats far to often on these kinds of boards. Hell... I've paid off a pair of sevens with a bluff, on a board like this. That is why I stopped making plays like this one on the river. I only make it against a player that knows where the fold button is.

    If you bet it, they will call.
    if youre telling me that piratepeaty (and i have no idea who you are other than you come with a good reputation) then im happy with that and this line aint good.
    I was under the assumption anyway that their are too many players who like flushes too much anyway, thats not a criticism btw salsa! i just wondered if anyone shared the same thoughts and hence bluffing them out once in a while was really worth the effort.
  58. #58
    [quote=Miffed22001]
    Quote Originally Posted by piratepeaty
    Quote Originally Posted by "Miffed22001
    Can we buy these pots with this line often enough to make it worth the effort against the standard player is i think what im trying to say.
    becuase salsa's opinion of calling this a lot and folding it a little scares me

    Most of the time I say, no. Based on my analysis earlier in the thread he needs to fold over half the time to break even. I don't think the 'standard' player does this. I've seen flushes pay off boats far to often on these kinds of boards. Hell... I've paid off a pair of sevens with a bluff, on a board like this. That is why I stopped making plays like this one on the river. I only make it against a player that knows where the fold button is.

    If you bet it, they will call.
    if youre telling me that piratepeaty (and i have no idea who you are other than you come with a good reputation) then im happy with that and this line aint good.
    I was under the assumption anyway that their are too many players who like flushes too much anyway, thats not a criticism btw salsa! i just wondered if anyone shared the same thoughts and hence bluffing them out once in a while was really worth the effort.
    Firstly it's not because I like flushes too much. In this hand I could have AA or KK and it wouldn't matter so much.

    I think the best I can do is to go with gabe's formulation. Something just doesn't seem right.

    In this particular game (stakes and players) the 3-bet represents to me is probably top pair, flush draw, set, each 30% and air (mid or bottom pair, gutshot, total air) about 10%...

    I think it's the turn check behind. With my call I've shown that I'm likely to be holding a flush draw. If I had a set then I'm thinking "OMG JACKPOT! flush card completes my hand!" I am not checking behind on 4th street. The size of my bet might vary but if I think u got a flush and I have a better hand I am not slow playing (what's the point of slow playing such a hand?) So when you check I take off 99 and 33 from my ist of possible hands. As I said, I think villain's flop play suggests 9x and 3x is unlikely. So the only hand that is consistent with the play on flop, turn and river is K9. Well, if he has that then so be it...

    To summarize, here is why I would call if I was the guy with the flush:

    1. Opponent's play to me over all streets is on some street inconsistent with a hand that beats me (KK raises pre-flop, 99 and 33 doesn't check the turn, 3x and 9x either folds pre-flop or doesn't go crazy on that flop, 3x might not go crazy on that river, and K9 well I'll just pay it off).

    edit: actually the more I think about it, the more mysterious this whole line looks to me. If villain had a bigger flush or KQ or TT or 88 or something like that which had showdown value why would he push this river?

    2. I have a decent hand myself. When combined with (1) and I just don't have the ability to really put my opponent on something, the fact I got a flush means I wanna show it down.

    3. I only have to be correct a third of the time to come out ahead.

    Out of curiosity, step in villain's shoes. Facing the play over the whole hand what do *you* put the raiser on?
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred
    Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
  59. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by salsa4ever
    Out of curiosity, step in villain's shoes. Facing the play over the whole hand what do *you* put the raiser on?
    Interesting question. He called a min-raise, in position, pre-flop, so that doesn't narrow down his hand range at all really, except that the lack of a re-raise means he probably does not have AA, KK, or QQ. He fired in the second raise on the flop - that usually means at least top pair good kicker, and more often two pair or a set. Based on that we could give him one of these hands: AK, KQ, maybe KJ; K9, K3, 93; 99, 33. One outside possibility is getting cute with a combo draw like Qc Jc.

    He checked behind on the turn when a three hit - and the three is significant for two reasons: it pairs the board and it puts a possible flush out there. Literally any one of the previously listed hands could check behind there hoping to either get a cheap showdown (AK, KQ, KJ, K9) or induce a river bluff, or flush value bet (K3, 99, 93, QcJc, and especially 33).

    On the river he raises all in against a pretty transparent value/blocking bet from a made flush. AK/KQ/KJ would probably not even dream of doing this. K9, 99, 93, and 33 definitely would. It would be pretty strange with a made flush no matter how high.

    Personally I would put the hero on a boat or quads, and fold my flush without a backward glance.
  60. #60
    Miffed22001's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, step in villain's shoes. Facing the play over the whole hand what do *you* put the raiser on?
    As dalecooper notes, good question. 3 betting the flop behind a miniraise which is *either* a flush draw OR a mighty strong hand (unlikely or bad line however) tells me smeone flopped a hnad thats going all the way.
    hand range for me here is a set or a nut flush draw (perhaps a flush draw with pair) even two pair. Preflop action suggests these ranges are likely (i find premium hand ranges difficult here, im expecting a reraises from AA/AK type hands preflop) . If our villain had the nutflush here i could defend his play enough not to suggest calling station (or overvaluing of hand) however he doesnt and that board destroys his hand in reference to the 3 bet flop range. I thought the first time i saw this hand it was a horrible play by our bluffer but an even more horrible call by villain and i still do. Id still love to play a *lot* of poker with villain here because i can see him picking his spots horribly like he did he. IMO he beats nothing by the river that would three bet the flop. Absolutly nothing, considering the preflop action.

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