Where do we go on the turn with KK here?

My turn bet is too weak...since I wasn't raised on the flop, should I assume that he is chasing or has a weaker holding?
By the river (even though my turn bet is weak), I assume he's either hit or has an ace.
How much would you call on the river here to find out? And is check-call/check-fold on the river acceptable or should I lead it and if so by how much?

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $28.36
UTG+1: $24.75
UTG+2: $5.74
MP1: $55.91
MP2: $16.55
MP3: $7.71
CO: $4.20
Button: $36.94
SB: $13.72
TheHorror: $25

Pre-flop: (10 players) TheHorror is BB with K K
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, Button raises to $1, SB folds, TheHorror raises to $3, UTG+2 folds, Button calls.

Flop: 3 A 8 ($6.4, 2 players)
TheHorror bets $4, Button calls.

Turn: 9 ($14.4, 2 players)
TheHorror bets $4, Button calls.

River: Q ($22.4, 2 players)
TheHorror checks, Button bets $8, TheHorror

I get into a lot of trouble with one person calling me down when I'm OOP too

The button could easily be raising any Ace with only one caller before him, you might as well check fold on the turn.

If you did lead out on the river it would only be in the hope he had sensed weakness - I think you'd be better folding. Would TT/JJ call you down on an A high flop? What weaker holding do you think he might have? Would you call with KQ here?

(These aren't rhetorical )

Weaker pairs sometimes float on the flop to see if you 'check' the turn when you really missed with KQ, KK-TT etc.

In this case I was pretty much putting this guy on AJ/AQ.

And feel free to berate me for the fact that my turn bet sucks. It's just building the pot. Since I put the guy on the ace more than the flush draw, I was hoping to get some more information here by showing a little weakness. Instead he just smooth-calls again.

Also - would this have been a good spot to check-raise the flop instead of lead out?

More times than not I check this flop I think. Depends on what I think villain is capable of raising and calling a re-raise with. I wouldn't advise a check-raise on the flop as it would only get hands that beat you to call (unless maybe villain bets his draws against PFR's?). I would slow down on the turn, and would probably c/f river to that bet. I think a set plays this way, a broadway flush draw plays this way, and an ace could also play this way. Maybe I'm too timid in these situations. Anyone else care to comment?

check fold flop

c-bet flop, shutdown if called

yes your turn bet is pathetic but at least you realize it

Originally Posted by DaHorror

Weaker pairs sometimes float on the flop to see if you 'check' the turn when you really missed with KQ, KK-TT etc.

In this case I was pretty much putting this guy on AJ/AQ.

And feel free to berate me for the fact that my turn bet sucks. It's just building the pot. Since I put the guy on the ace more than the flush draw, I was hoping to get some more information here by showing a little weakness. Instead he just smooth-calls again.

Also - would this have been a good spot to check-raise the flop instead of lead out?

What kind of information were you looking to get? If he raised what does that mean? You bet weak and he can see that. So he may raise with any two because it looks like you don't like your hand.

Originally Posted by Renton

check fold flop

This is way too weak.

Check/fold flop line is acceptable but very weak.
Id like a read on opp here and his range from the button then id decide whether id take this to showdown. With it being crypto i think id have taken this all the way folding to a raise on the river if he chased. If he calls down with an ace then my reraising range against him becomes a lot wider and im playing for stacks when we get aces flopping.

Originally Posted by piratepeaty

Originally Posted by Renton

check fold flop

This is way too weak.

Probably, but I think that checking gains more information than betting with zero expectation does. If he doesnt have an A, he might check behind because he thinks you're slowplaying a set of A's or AK or something. I think that the only thing Hero is ahead of that pays off a flop bet is a draw, but even then you aren't sure where you stand.

Checking may show more strength than betting and might give villain a chance to define his own hand.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by piratepeaty

Originally Posted by Renton

check fold flop

This is way too weak.

Probably, but I think that checking gains more information than betting with zero expectation does. If he doesnt have an A, he might check behind because he thinks you're slowplaying a set of A's or AK or something. I think that the only thing Hero is ahead of that pays off a flop bet is a draw, but even then you aren't sure where you stand.

Checking my show more strength than betting and might give cause villain to define his own hand.

i can agree with this.
If weve been known to check raise oop with the goods i guess if opp bets and we raise we can possibly bully opp off an ace. If we havent set that precedent however then i guess i can go with the check/fold line here.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

More times than not I check this flop I think. Depends on what I think villain is capable of raising and calling a re-raise with. I wouldn't advise a check-raise on the flop as it would only get hands that beat you to call (unless maybe villain bets his draws against PFR's?). I would slow down on the turn, and would probably c/f river to that bet. I think a set plays this way, a broadway flush draw plays this way, and an ace could also play this way. Maybe I'm too timid in these situations. Anyone else care to comment?

I agree that it depends on the villian. Knowing your opponent makes playing a hand like this OOP much easier. I don't think betting this flop is terrible, but I like checking slightly more. Especially, if he isn't the type to bet when checked to with air. I'm not too worried about a flush draw in this situation because he raised preflop and the Ace of clubs is already on the board, so that eliminates Axs.

I think keeping the pot small here is most important. Your going to lose a big pot to a better hand almost always. Therefore, I think my standard play would be to check call the flop, check call a small bet on the turn, and check fold to a larger bet.

OP, as played, it's very unlikely that you are good on the river.

Unfortunately I didn't have any reads on the guy, as I had recently sat down, hit wait for blind, and then read some posts here so this was my first hand at the table.
Wish I'd paid more attention, though I wouldn't have had all that much more info.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that he doesn't have an ace. In that case, at worst I'm being called down my QQ-TT here, and certainly a flush draw.
I don't think JJ/TT or a worse pair bets the river...QQ just tripped up and the flush draw hit.

Also assume that he will call any turn bet, but that he is chasing in some form. The problem I had was not wanting to put down a turn bet that pot-committed me on the river, as in general with AA I would likely push the turn. Even with AK here I'm betting around $10.
But that doesn't leave much room when that 3rd club comes around on the river.

My dissappointment with the hand was in
(1) terrible turn bet
(2) no reads
(3) Check-raising the flop would have probably gained me more info. If he checked the flop, I can go from there as he most likely does not have an Ace in that situation


My turn bet said, as indicated, that I didn't like my hand all that much (afraid of the ace), so it left too much room to be bluffed out later. Most folks won't go for that so it's not too big of a concern at this level in general. But the turn bet by me doesn't protect against the flush draw , and didn't buy me any more information, so it was just pointless altogether.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by piratepeaty

Originally Posted by Renton

check fold flop

This is way too weak.

Probably, but I think that checking gains more information than betting with zero expectation does. If he doesnt have an A, he might check behind because he thinks you're slowplaying a set of A's or AK or something. I think that the only thing Hero is ahead of that pays off a flop bet is a draw, but even then you aren't sure where you stand.

Checking may show more strength than betting and might give villain a chance to define his own hand.

That's why I like a check call. A pocket pair still may bet when checked to, and we may be ahead. The pot is fairly large (it was raised and reraised). Any bet less than pot size will give us at least 2 to 1 and I think we are good here at least that often when he bets. On the turn I like c/f.

Obviously, this changes as villians with the villians aggression. If he is very passive, I like the check fold like. My point is, we don't have to be good that often to call one bet on the flop.

Originally Posted by piratepeaty

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by piratepeaty

Originally Posted by Renton

check fold flop

This is way too weak.

Probably, but I think that checking gains more information than betting with zero expectation does. If he doesnt have an A, he might check behind because he thinks you're slowplaying a set of A's or AK or something. I think that the only thing Hero is ahead of that pays off a flop bet is a draw, but even then you aren't sure where you stand.

Checking may show more strength than betting and might give villain a chance to define his own hand.

That's why I like a check call. A pocket pair still may bet when checked to, and we may be ahead. The pot is fairly large (it was raised and reraised). Any bet less than pot size will give us at least 2 to 1 and I think we are good here at least that often when he bets. On the turn I like c/f.

Obviously, this changes as villians with the villians aggression. If he is very passive, I like the check fold like. My point is, we don't have to be good that often to call one bet on the flop.

I was overly general with my original response.

What I meant to say was check/evaluate villains bet pattern/fold or call flop. If they bet weak then c/r. If they bet 2/3 like a value bet then fold. If they overbet or anything else conspicuous, then consider calling.

I said check/fold flop because villain here has a hand like AJ+ a large percentage of the time, his response to your flop check would let me know it, and I'd be folding to his bet most of the time.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by piratepeaty

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by piratepeaty

Originally Posted by Renton

check fold flop

This is way too weak.

Probably, but I think that checking gains more information than betting with zero expectation does. If he doesnt have an A, he might check behind because he thinks you're slowplaying a set of A's or AK or something. I think that the only thing Hero is ahead of that pays off a flop bet is a draw, but even then you aren't sure where you stand.

Checking may show more strength than betting and might give villain a chance to define his own hand.

That's why I like a check call. A pocket pair still may bet when checked to, and we may be ahead. The pot is fairly large (it was raised and reraised). Any bet less than pot size will give us at least 2 to 1 and I think we are good here at least that often when he bets. On the turn I like c/f.

Obviously, this changes as villians with the villians aggression. If he is very passive, I like the check fold like. My point is, we don't have to be good that often to call one bet on the flop.

I was overly general with my original response.

What I meant to say was check/evaluate villains bet pattern/fold or call flop. If they bet weak then c/r. If they bet 2/3 like a value bet then fold. If they overbet or anything else conspicuous, then consider calling.

I said check/fold flop because villain here has a hand like AJ+ a large percentage of the time, his response to your flop check would let me know it, and I'd be folding to his bet most of the time.

Why would you c/r a weak bet? all you do is get worse hands to fold. You also get better hands a chance to reraise. It's WA/WB.

How large a percentage of the time? there are 4 aces in the deck and one is on the board. That leaves his 3 aces. He did raise preflop, which may indicate some kind of strong ace, but we have zero reads. Even if he bets the pot, we only need to be good 33% of the time to call. I don't hate a check fold, but I really don't like everyone at the table knowing I will laydown a hand when an Ace hits the flop after I reraised preflop.

And why call an overbet? we have NO reads and a weak hand.

Well - I posted this hand due to how I donked the turn. There are plenty of times where I bet the flop and get a fold (or a raise and can let go).

I thought until time expired on the river, trying to put him on something other than the obvious hands that beat me (Ax, flush, QQ), and ran outta time and folded.

He showed the 3 4 for bottom pair bluffed flush draw.
A smart, albeit risky play by him...and a new note on the guy for me.

Thanks for all the comments.

Originally Posted by DaHorror

Well - I posted this hand due to how I donked the turn. There are plenty of times where I bet the flop and get a fold (or a raise and can let go).

I thought until time expired on the river, trying to put him on something other than the obvious hands that beat me (Ax, flush, QQ), and ran outta time and folded.

He showed the 3 4 for bottom pair bluffed flush draw.
A smart, albeit risky play by him...and a new note on the guy for me.

Thanks for all the comments.

lol wow 34o - did not see that coming. Well now you know what villain will do on the button behind 1 limper and that he will call a 3x pre-flop re-raise with anything - the only worse heads up hand is 23o. Make a note and shake it off.