Who's right? How would you play this hand?

So, it's Party, NL 25$ and I'm on the button. I get dealt AcKc, and a guy in early position raises it up to $1.75. So, I call and so does another guy. The flop comes 4h, Tc, Jc.

I like it. I have nothing right now, but I'm 4-flush for the nut flush, and a queen for the nut straight.

First to act, he bets $4. Other player folds. Comes to me...

What would you do???

I'll post the hand after.

with 11 outs (17 to pair up) you don't have pot odds but you have huge implied odds.

Call.

I assume you lost to trips, the other guy berated you and had you questioning your play. Don't listen to them. They are stupid.

I would call, you need a club to the flush or a queen to the straight/royal flush, and if you do hit your hand you will be able to take a lot of money from this player.

He seems to have either trips, or two pair so youll be ok unless the board pairs up. As hump said, pot odds arent there but you do have very high implied odds, so if you did call you made the right play


-anto

I called him. I had implied odds ringing in my head. Here's what happened. Turn comes 5d. He bets 5. I thought about folding. I kept thinking high pair, but I wasn't sure if it was aces. If it was, there three of my outs. I thought about him having pockets tens or jacks for the trips. But, I was still figuring, it's a $14 pot, he bet $5, that's not too bad, considering the implied odds, and frankly, I was thinking flush or royal flush. If I score, he seems like he's betting, I could get a ton out of him.

Well, got a Kd on the river. I paired up. Turns out he had queens. He was pissed that I kept calling. He couldn't understand it. Went on for a while about it. I might have put him on tilt. I just felt it was the right play, I doubt I'd do it on limit.

***** Hand History for Game 1224780396 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Friday, November 26, 09:39:12 EDT 2004
Table Cash n Cash (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: me ( $23.95 )
Seat 3: player3 ( $97 )
Seat 4: player4 ( $23.3 )
Seat 5: him ( $83.25 )
Seat 6: player6 ( $47 )
Seat 9: player9 ( $44.4 )
Seat 10: player10 ( $21.45 )
Seat 2: player2 ( $24.65 )
Seat 7: player7 ( $25 )
player2 posts small blind [$0.25].
player3 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to me [ Ac Kc ]
player4 folds.
him raises [$1.75].
player6 folds.
someone has joined the table.
player7 calls [$1.75].
player9 folds.
player10 folds.
me calls [$1.75].
player2 folds.
player3 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, Tc, Jc ]
him bets [$4].
player7 folds.
me calls [$4].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
him bets [$5].
me calls [$5].
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
him bets [$4].
me calls [$4].
him shows [ Qc, Qs ] a pair of queens.
me shows [ Ac, Kc ] a pair of kings.
me wins $30.4 from the main pot with a pair of kings.

You know, I thought about it after; he should have been glad a queen didn't come up. He probably would have bet like mad and lost on the straight. I agree, I hate losing on the river, but I think his turn bet should have been higher. He might have forced me out.

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

why just call with A/K pre flop

RAISE !!

Ding ding ding ding ding! Congratulations Rippy, you've found a leak!

You should be putting in a strong re-raise with AKs in my opinion, you can't let the other guy take the lead all the way through. Always be looking to make a stand.

But you did make the right decision on the flop and turn, which was good, your implied odds were through the roof.

Interesting.

I'll raise with AK, no doubt about it, but with AKo, I don't re-raise. So, yeah, this was suited, so I could have. But, I wanted him in. Granted, I doubt he'd fold two queens, but I had just joined the table and didn't know how loose this guy was. So far, he hadn't played a hand.

But after the flop, I didn't want to re-raise and scare him out, and I didn't want to put too much in... just in case. Not aggressive enough???

It's beyond me why "him" didn’t at the least bet POT on both the FLOP and TURN.
If I'd been you, would have considered a raise on the turn, you had a lot of outs there.
Certainly a gamble on your part, and I have to believe that would have provoked him into an ALL In bet.
I am certainly going to the River with him if he continues to make those types of bets.
I find it odd that he openly questioned that after the hand. Better yet, revealing.

Pre-Flop
Bet- I Got a good hand…………. Call,,so do I!
Flop
Still got a good hand………… Call, my hand aint bad either
Turn
Bet,,what the hell you doin? my hand is good. Call, Apparently not that GOOD!
River
Bet, uh-ho what does he have…… Call, Well I am here now might as well see it!

I would have moved in on the flop here--if I fold him out great, if not then at least I have at least 10 outs to the nuts and likely more [against QQ you had 16 (18 minus the two dead queens)]. Anytime I have AKs in a raised pot and the flop has two to my suit, that's a hand I'm willing to gamble with and try to get all my money in with on the flop (unless I have a huge stack and am against another large stack in which case I'd probably err on the side of caution and just call).

And with AK suited or offsuit in a cash game, it is generally best just to call a raise and see the flop rather than reraise and risk having the other guy come over the top (a move many would make with virtually any semi-strong holding at party NL25) and getting yourself shut out of the pot or making a bad call as probably either a huge dog or slight dog.

rippy that hand history doesn't mean anything
this is a ring game situation, where AK pre flop push isn't always the best move.

I agree with what twosev said

Yeah, I can go either way preflop when it comes to raising or calling with AK in a NL ring game. One very nice thing about just calling that hasn't been mentioned is that you can often take a big pot off of a AQ or AJ type hand because you didn't reraise, if an ace flops.

And I don't know what everyone else is talking about, you don't even need implied odds to justify calling at any stage in this hand. At the flop the pot is $11 and its $5 to call. You have 12 outs to the nuts, which is a 45% chance of just hitting the nuts alone, so he's laying you great pot odds. Assuming that the guy has any pair besides pocket aces, which you have no reason to put him on, you have at least 3 more outs (one of your overs is probably covered) to give you a 57% chance of winning. Its literally impossible to have bad pot odds, no matter what he bets, when you are the favorite to win.

Calling, at the very least, is a no brainer, as you were the favorite in the hand. The guy critisizing you about calling with this monster of a hand with this flop clearly knows very little about poker.

Raising at the flop would've been the best option, though. Its the type of hand where you should be looking to get all your money in at the flop if you can, like twosevoff said. If he reraised you big, I'd typically move all in at the flop. A good player won't pay you off that much after you hit. If you got enough outs to be the favorite, its best to get the money in when you can, and it'll pay off in the long run. Plus if they want to fold at the flop to your all in rereraise, that works for you too.

The main exception to raising on the flop would be if the player is aggressive and may easily have nothing (at least not enough to call a raise with), and is likely to keep bluffing at the pot until you play back at him. When you have this many outs, just calling should basically be considered in your mind as a strange form of slowplaying, not as chasing. But if you think they have a good enough hand so that you can raise at the flop and build the pot then you should.