World Class Hellmuth laydown, or bad fold???, hand=KK

FullTiltPoker Game #1308590527: Table Papyrus (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 14:50:23 ET - 2006/11/26
Seat 1: v4ImmBa ($48)
Seat 2: auto_punk ($55.35)
Seat 3: Vader1977 ($43.80)
Seat 4: Pokeratician ($48.50)
Seat 5: ungar2000 ($73.40)
Seat 6: El Subestimado ($50)
Vader1977 posts the small blind of $0.25
Pokeratician posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #2


*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ungar2000 [Kc Kd]
ungar2000 has 15 seconds left to act
ungar2000 raises to $1.75
El Subestimado folds
v4ImmBa raises to $6
auto_punk folds
Vader1977 folds
Pokeratician folds
ungar2000 calls $4.25

At this point I only called because I hate pushing and only getting called by AA...maybe I should have just pushed it, though????
Villian was 8%PFR / 19%VPIP (75 hands)
His numbers caused me to just smooth call it, and make sure the Ace didn't flop...

*** FLOP *** [9h 8s Js]
ungar2000 checks
v4ImmBa bets $9
ungar2000 has 15 seconds left to act
ungar2000 folds
Uncalled bet of $9 returned to v4ImmBa
v4ImmBa mucks
v4ImmBa wins the pot ($12.15)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $12.75 | Rake $0.60
Board: [9h 8s Js]
Seat 1: v4ImmBa collected ($12.15), mucked
Seat 2: auto_punk (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Vader1977 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: Pokeratician (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: ungar2000 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: El Subestimado didn't bet (folded)


I certainly could have led out. I'm not sure why I didn't....
Overall HOW SHOULD I HAVE PLAYED THIS HAND???

I would have led out with a probe bet atleast, just checking shows a lot of weakness and you don't really know where you stand in the hand without betting.

Don't fold to a single bet.

People tend to become paranoid with KK always fearing someone has AA. I would suggest repoping it preflop and getting away from an all in push. As played you just have to lead this flop. At 6max reraising with 1010+ is pretty standard, and you dont have enough info to figure out where you stand.

HELLMUTH?...COME ON!

re-reraise preflop...a lot more hands than AA reraise your raise preflop...if he comes back over the top or forces you to put your money in, its not unlikely that he would have AA, but at the same time i've seen lots of players make that move with QQ JJ or even AK, AQ. do you know anything about the guy? is he aggressive, super tight, or what...this kind of situation its important to have a read on your opponent.

I mean it's not like he is 14/3 or something, he's 19/8 so this really could be TT+ AQs+ AKo (maybe wider?)... bad laydown!

edit - it would help to know how you are running at this table.

Originally Posted by b-rabbit

is he aggressive, super tight, or what...this kind of situation its important to have a read on your opponent.

the original post said 'Villian was 8%PFR / 19%VPIP'
this means the villian raises 8% of his hands preflop and 'voluntarily puts money in the pot' 19% of the time.

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by b-rabbit

is he aggressive, super tight, or what...this kind of situation its important to have a read on your opponent.

the original post said 'Villian was 8%PFR / 19%VPIP'
this means the villian raises 8% of his hands preflop and 'voluntarily puts money in the pot' 19% of the time.

word
missed that part

this was really weak . you need to reraise pf or atleast lead the flop or call the flop and reevaluate on the turn.

You have too little information about his hand to make a World Class Laydown here.

You informed him that you might have missed overs, low pair, or jack shit by your flop check. Easy flop call imho.

Some alternative lines:

(1) 3-bet preflop
For the most part this defines your hand as AA/KK...certain players with AA will smooth call the 3-bet and stack you postflop, others will push mostly AA/KK preflop and you might be able to make a good laydown then depending on the player, stakes, etc.

(2) Lead out flop
Indicates that you like your hand...you may still be able to get away if he reraises/pushes the flop depending on stakes, reads, etc.

(3) Check-raise the flop, possibly even check-push the flop
If you feel like you aren't getting away from the hand, and/or would prefer to end the hand on the flop...possibility of folding out AA/QQ/TT/AJ here - obviously sets call but if you weren't getting away anyhow so be it, but this is probably the only chance you can get AA to fold if the player is nitty enough (doubt this works often anyway so it's more a matter of making your best attempt to end the hand on the flop). Not necessarily the optimal line.

(4) Check-call flop and reevaluate on the turn (possibly lead turn, possibly check turn depending on reads, board)
You are not likely to be able to put your opponent on AA vs. QQ/TT/JJ etc. anyway given the pot size and all, but since so many players will not continue to bluff AK on a blank turn you may be able to get more information on his hand on the turn.
Also, there is some chance that a 3rd spade falls on the turn and scares some opponents into slowing down, allowing you a cheaper showdown if you feel that you might be beat.

Not the only lines you could take but a good subset...I think check-folding the flop is indicative that you are playing scared in some manner (due to prior bad beats, running into AA with KK a few times recently, getting setted on with overpairs recently and paying off and whatnot).

Not just a world class phill hellmuth laydown, but also a world class phill hellmuth bad play.

If you're scared of going heads up against A-A all the time, then I think you should just stop playing poker entirely.

I would have raise preflop, bet out 3/4 of the pot on the flop, and see how he plays back at you. I prolly only put him on A-K A-Q by the way you play your Kings. The fold is fine, but its only fine because you're so conservative at playing ur kings. Like I said, if you think that

At this point I only called because I hate pushing and only getting called by AA...

Then just stop playing poker completely, my apoligies if Im being too blunt

1. You played this badly.
2. Just calling and then not looking to get it all in on the flop is bad IMO.
3. The flop fold is so weak i refuse to comment.
4. AA versus KK happens. If you are so afraid of losing 100bbs with KK versus AA all in preflop go and read a thread about where 5000nl players say they can only fold it preflop for 100bbs against a few known regulars and just suggest 'KK versus AA happens'

After all that, 3 bet preflop and probably call a push at these stakes. However if it were me id three bet and fold to a push becuase you should find bigger edges in the game IMO, especially when you play your cards face up and still face agression (particularly if your opponent is 18/9 and shows the possibility of being able to play)

The only reason to smooth call preflop, is so you can trap the losing range. You're not considering a fold on most flops. It's not really much of an option.

With KK you want as much money in preflop as possible. RAISE RAISE RAISE. If he puts you all in you call. If he flips AA. YOU ARE NOT NECESSARILY BEATEN (70/30 right?). Compared to the hands he could push id say calling was hugely +$EV.

If you know the guy really well and you definately know he has AA or its one of only 2 hands he could be playing then sure smooth call and maybe make the play you did. HUD stats do not give you that read. Only 1000's of hands with the same guy and an amazing memory could get you there. Im not good enough even to have this sort of read on anyone so i guess im always going after this preflop.

AA to KK....70/30.....wtf

Pair over pair is ~ 80 /20

AK v AQ (or other dominated hands) is ~ 70 / 30

btw....this site is getting too much of a place for people "showing off" hands they played that they really don't need advice on.

For me personally, I play a long session and anytime I play a hand terrible/badly/donk-like, I write it down and obtain it from pokertracker after im done to post it on here or 2plus2. I KNOW I PLAYED THIS KK TERRIBLE...THATS WHY IM POSTING IT HERE....I THINK MORE PLAYERS NEED TO POST HANDS LIKE THIS, INSTEAD OF "LOOK AT ME RAPE THIS GUY" sort of hands!!!

OMG ULTIMATE PWNAGE!!! LOOK HOW I RAPE THIS GUY!! WHAT A DONK

Full Tilt Poker Game #1355754016: Table Sidebrook (6 max) - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:04:15 ET - 2006/12/05
Seat 1: Jeffreak13 ($3.20), is sitting out
Seat 2: wg100 ($26.60)
Seat 3: seib ($23.90)
Seat 4: canuck27 ($13.60)
Seat 5: br614 ($27.20)
Seat 6: SchluckyNutz ($29.85)
canuck27 posts the small blind of $0.10
br614 posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to br614 [8s 8h]
SchluckyNutz folds
wg100 calls $0.25
seib folds
canuck27 calls $0.15
br614 raises to $1
wg100 folds
canuck27 calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [3d 9h 5d]
canuck27 bets $1
br614 calls $1
*** TURN *** [3d 9h 5d] [9s]
canuck27 bets $2
br614 raises to $5
canuck27 calls $3
*** RIVER *** [3d 9h 5d 9s] [7h]
canuck27 bets $6.60, and is all in
br614 has 15 seconds left to act
br614 calls $6.60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
canuck27 shows [Kh 5c] (two pair, Nines and Fives)
br614 shows [8s 8h] (two pair, Nines and Eights)
br614 wins the pot ($26.10) with two pair, Nines and Eights
canuck27 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $27.45 | Rake $1.35
Board: [3d 9h 5d 9s 7h]
Seat 1: Jeffreak13 is sitting out
Seat 2: wg100 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: seib (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: canuck27 (small blind) showed [Kh 5c] and lost with two pair, Nines and Fives
Seat 5: br614 (big blind) showed [8s 8h] and won ($26.10) with two pair, Nines and Eights
Seat 6: SchluckyNutz didn't bet (folded)


LOLZ

Originally Posted by unger2000

btw....this site is getting too much of a place for people "showing off" hands they played that they really don't need advice on.

For me personally, I play a long session and anytime I play a hand terrible/badly/donk-like, I write it down and obtain it from pokertracker after im done to post it on here or 2plus2. I KNOW I PLAYED THIS KK TERRIBLE...THATS WHY IM POSTING IT HERE....I THINK MORE PLAYERS NEED TO POST HANDS LIKE THIS, INSTEAD OF "LOOK AT ME RAPE THIS GUY" sort of hands!!!

erm... and?

Originally Posted by unger2000

btw....this site is getting too much of a place for people "showing off" hands they played that they really don't need advice on.

For me personally, I play a long session and anytime I play a hand terrible/badly/donk-like, I write it down and obtain it from pokertracker after im done to post it on here or 2plus2. I KNOW I PLAYED THIS KK TERRIBLE...THATS WHY IM POSTING IT HERE....I THINK MORE PLAYERS NEED TO POST HANDS LIKE THIS, INSTEAD OF "LOOK AT ME RAPE THIS GUY" sort of hands!!!

You posted it and got comments on it, what more can you ask for?

Originally Posted by unger2000

btw....this site is getting too much of a place for people "showing off" hands they played that they really don't need advice on.

For me personally, I play a long session and anytime I play a hand terrible/badly/donk-like, I write it down and obtain it from pokertracker after im done to post it on here or 2plus2. I KNOW I PLAYED THIS KK TERRIBLE...THATS WHY IM POSTING IT HERE....I THINK MORE PLAYERS NEED TO POST HANDS LIKE THIS, INSTEAD OF "LOOK AT ME RAPE THIS GUY" sort of hands!!!

what are you talking about? this came out of nowhere.

Originally Posted by unger2000

btw....this site is getting too much of a place for people "showing off" hands they played that they really don't need advice on.

For me personally, I play a long session and anytime I play a hand terrible/badly/donk-like, I write it down and obtain it from pokertracker after im done to post it on here or 2plus2. I KNOW I PLAYED THIS KK TERRIBLE...THATS WHY IM POSTING IT HERE....I THINK MORE PLAYERS NEED TO POST HANDS LIKE THIS, INSTEAD OF "LOOK AT ME RAPE THIS GUY" sort of hands!!!

And you're mad becoz we're telling you how to play it correctly?

lol the fold might have been good but you'll never know

If he never ever reraises AK (not sure of that) and smooth-calls with 99 and under, then you're ahead of exactly 2 hands in his range (10 10 and QQ). You are crushed by JJ and AA and are splitting with the unlikely KK...

Meh. The fold is not completely as horrific as some ppl are making it out to be (since board isn't the best for you hand). But for the love of God, at least lead the flop and fold to a raise if you think he's a complete post-flop nit.

something like this (if this is a "showoff" hand oh well...) :

** Game ID 932291782 starting - 2006-09-10 01:42:32
** Bravada [Hold 'em] (1.00|2.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- HERO sitting in seat 1 with $235.75
- phoenixinex sitting in seat 2 with $231.32
- QKangQ sitting in seat 3 with $221.23
- subfallen sitting in seat 4 with $190.65 [Dealer]
- JPack sitting in seat 5 with $98.15
- lops sitting in seat 6 with $56.00

JPack posted the small blind - $1.00
lops posted the big blind - $2.00

** Dealing card to HERO: Queen of Hearts, Queen of Diamonds
HERO raised - $7.00
phoenixinex folded
QKangQ raised - $35.00
subfallen folded
JPack folded
lops folded
HERO called - $35.00

** Dealing the flop: Jack of Hearts, 6 of Diamonds, 4 of Diamonds
HERO bet - $45.00
QKangQ went all-in - $186.23
HERO folded
QKangQ shows: Ace of Diamonds, Ace of Spades
QKangQ wins $301.23 from the main pot