A tricky hand

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05-30-2005, 10:46 AM
deathroller

A tricky hand

Royal Vegas 0.05/0.1

MP1 = A fish with 3.5x buy in, has been calling pot sized bets with weak draws on the turn making a fortune every time, of course.

Button = No accurate read, has 2x buy in.

I have ~$12 and get dealt :qh: :qc: in MP2. I raise it to 4x bb and get a few callers (BB, MP1 (who limped), Button).

The pot is ~$2 and the flop comes :jh: :9h: :5h:.

BB checks, MP1 checks, I bet the pot ($2), button min raises ($4), MP1 calls. I'm pretty sure MP1 (or the button) has a flush draw stronger than mine (Ah/Kh, giving them an overcard aswell) but I don't really have a read on the button. Maybe he just raised his flush for value or caught a set or something?

Given the short thinking time I folded because I thought I was likely to get beat or to be already beaten. I had good pot odds but in tables this fishy I play pretty cautiously and wait for a better opportunity to put my chips in the middle when I'm ahead for sure. Was that horrible play and should I just have went all in? Or would the right play had been calling and going all in if the turn card had been a non-heart and not a J, K or A?
05-30-2005, 01:07 PM
FishMagician

This one hurts my head. I push because I think they're both on draws, but there's a decent chance I'm wrong.
05-30-2005, 01:32 PM
SmackinYaUp

Re: A tricky hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathroller

Was that horrible play and should I just have went all in? Or would the right play had been calling and going all in if the turn card had been a non-heart and not a J, K or A?

I dont think folding is a terrile idea here because there is no way you will ever have the nuts on this hand. Not only could you be up against a made hand, but a couple of strong draws have you beat as well in terms of winning %'s. You may have wanted to raise it up to potisized to cut off odds and drop it if anyone re-raises you. A cold call should also slow you down because not only do you have no idea where you are, but there are about 47 cards you don't want to see.
05-30-2005, 08:01 PM
FishMagician

Re: A tricky hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

You may have wanted to raise it up to potisized to cut off odds and drop it if anyone re-raises you

I was thinking his stack wasn't deep enough to get away from a re-raise, so if you're going to raise I say go all-in. If you raise 4 more and get pushed, there's now going to be a monster pot and I don't think I could get away from it knowing that someone could make that play with a set (in which case I now have pot odds to draw to the flush) or the Ace of hearts, or even a Jack. So if I'm going to call all-in anyway, I'd just push.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathroller

I had good pot odds but in tables this fishy I play pretty cautiously and wait for a better opportunity to put my chips in the middle when I'm ahead for sure.

Bad thinking. If it's +EV, it's profitable in the long run. This is a cash game. If you get busted you can re-buy and still take these guys' money.

I'm not saying this is a bad fold. I think it's really really close, but this line of thinking is bad.
05-31-2005, 12:37 AM
a500lbgorilla

Folding isn't bad.

Its difficult for me to think about these numbers in the right context. Usually in these situations, I bump the opponent right back up to 9. But here, that's your stack. Your hand is too weak to let this pot get big and out of your control, laying down isn't bad.

Side not: I don't bet that flop 4 ways on a coordinated board with queens.

-'rilla
05-31-2005, 11:56 AM
deathroller

Re: A tricky hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by FishMagician

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathroller

I had good pot odds but in tables this fishy I play pretty cautiously and wait for a better opportunity to put my chips in the middle when I'm ahead for sure.

Bad thinking. If it's +EV, it's profitable in the long run. This is a cash game. If you get busted you can re-buy and still take these guys' money.

I'm not saying this is a bad fold. I think it's really really close, but this line of thinking is bad.

Good point but I guess I didn't express myself well enough; I wasn't sure if this was +EV or not so that's why I folded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Side not: I don't bet that flop 4 ways on a coordinated board with queens.

Not even after BB and MP1 check it to you? Do you just go "oh well, bad flop, I'll just check/fold"?. After the two checks I figured I have a good chance to buy the pot right there and even if someone called I'd still have a decent hand (and position to BB and MP1).
05-31-2005, 01:58 PM
a500lbgorilla

Re: A tricky hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathroller

Quote:

Originally Posted by FishMagician

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathroller

I had good pot odds but in tables this fishy I play pretty cautiously and wait for a better opportunity to put my chips in the middle when I'm ahead for sure.

Bad thinking. If it's +EV, it's profitable in the long run. This is a cash game. If you get busted you can re-buy and still take these guys' money.

I'm not saying this is a bad fold. I think it's really really close, but this line of thinking is bad.

Good point but I guess I didn't express myself well enough; I wasn't sure if this was +EV or not so that's why I folded.

It is.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Side not: I don't bet that flop 4 ways on a coordinated board with queens.

Not even after BB and MP1 check it to you? Do you just go "oh well, bad flop, I'll just check/fold"?. After the two checks I figured I have a good chance to buy the pot right there and even if someone called I'd still have a decent hand (and position to BB and MP1).

QQ is a losing hand for me still. You're right to bet it there. It's just me and queens are on a break. :)

I just don't like how the pot got so big so quickly.

EDIT -- Actually, they win me .04 BB every time I get em!

-'rilla
05-31-2005, 02:19 PM
koolmoe

Re: A tricky hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I dont think folding is a terrile idea here because there is no way you will ever have the nuts on this hand.

Technically he could have the nuts if the turn and river are AhKh.

Still, I'd fold because of the overcall. Even though MP1 is a fish (?), overcalls scare me.
05-31-2005, 04:19 PM
TylerK

Re: A tricky hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I dont think folding is a terrile idea here because there is no way you will ever have the nuts on this hand.

Technically he could have the nuts if the turn and river are AhKh.

Still, I'd fold because of the overcall. Even though MP1 is a fish (?), overcalls scare me.

Assuming a correct read on MP1, the call can be safely ignored.
05-31-2005, 04:30 PM
deathroller

Re: A tricky hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerK

Assuming a correct read on MP1, the call can be safely ignored.

What makes this hard is that he'd probably make the same play with Th2c and AhKh.
05-31-2005, 05:10 PM
TylerK

Re: A tricky hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathroller

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerK

Assuming a correct read on MP1, the call can be safely ignored.

What makes this hard is that he'd probably make the same play with Th2c and AhKh.

Exactly. If the closest you can get to putting him on a hand is "definitely 2 cards of some rank and suit," there's no point in trying. If you don't expect him to raise but expect him to call with any 2, just play the hand as if he wasn't in it.