Abusing 25 NL 6-max

This thread is aimed towards helping Surf_Thug and others struggling to make money at 25 NL 6-max.

I decided to calm my nerves down by playing 25 NL 6-max for a short while, before playing big stakes games again. Here is a hand that I think neatly illustrates how to abuse weak players' poor understanding of the game:

***** Hand History for Game 2510012650 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 10, 04:44:17 EDT 2005
Table Table 54965 (6 max) (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: DaMan1325 ( $107.23 )
Seat 3: Jungstar ( $25.75 )
Seat 4: Kingfish__ ( $29.85 )
Seat 6: mkt9204 ( $20 )
Kingfish__ posts small blind [$0.10].
mkt9204 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Kingfish__ [ Ad Ac ]
DaMan1325 folds.
Jungstar calls [$0.25].
Kingfish__ raises [$0.65].
mkt9204 calls [$0.50].
Jungstar calls [$0.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, Js, Qs ]
Kingfish__ checks.
mkt9204 checks.
Jungstar checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3h ]
Kingfish__ bets [$3].
mkt9204 calls [$3].
Jungstar folds.
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]
Kingfish__ checks.
mkt9204 bets [$3].
Kingfish__ calls [$3].
mkt9204 shows [ 5s, 6s ] a pair of queens.
Kingfish__ shows [ Ad, Ac ] two pairs, aces and queens.
Kingfish__ wins $13.55 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and queens.

Notice how on the flop I'm not betting anything. I want to get an idea what my opps have. If I bet something I could get called by a draw, which is actually bad in this case, since there are so many draws out there I have no clue what my opp has. Furthermore, he has position on me, giving him a big advantage implied odds-wise. So instead I wait to make a check-raise on whoever bets. After seeing everyone check, I know no one has a Q or a J.

When the turn comes a blank, I overbet the pot, and still get called by someone drawing to spades with two unders who fails to understand the concept of pot odds. On the river when he misses I simply check since only a better hand than mine calls a bet. As a result I induce him to bluff, which I promptly call.

Great stuff, great comments, I just have to say I your understanding of ring is g00t! Keep HH's coming bud!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spino1i

Notice how on the flop I'm not betting anything. I want to get an idea what my opps have. If I bet something I could get called by a draw, which is actually bad in this case, since there are so many draws out there I have no clue what my opp has. Furthermore, he has position on me, giving him a big advantage implied odds-wise. So instead I wait to make a check-raise on whoever bets. After seeing everyone check, I know no one has a Q or a J.

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Do you understand pot odds? If the above is the play you're advocating then you obviously don't. By checking the flop you gave infinite pot odds to an opponent drawing to a flush - that's stupid. Furthermore, there's not really such a thing as a turn "blank" when you don't bet the flop. The 3h may look nice but the guy with pocket 3's who checked behind on the flop now has you bent over a barrel.

This play is terrible on so many levels. What do you do on the river if it's the 4c and he pots it? What if he called with 5h6h? Do you snap off his bluff then? His bet size on the end was terrible but that's the only thing that saved you from your own bad play.

My point is that at the $25NL nearly everyone is terrible. Generally the best approach is to bet out to protect your good hands from draws and to fold to heavy aggression from anyone that you don't have noted down as a maniac.

Not to seem results oriented, but in this hand you would have got more value out of your aces by playing them in a straight forward manner since the flush draw guy would have called a bet on the flop and turn.

mj

Thanks for the help spinoi (sp?), Your the man. You guys are great and I appriciate all the advice you have been giving me..

Can you post more examples of hands with commentary. This is what I need to help my 25NL 6-Max game out..

Btw, from the last reply I can already tell theres going to be a good discusion on this last hand you posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rdqlus

Do you understand pot odds? If the above is the play you're advocating then you obviously don't. By checking the flop you gave infinite pot odds to an opponent drawing to a flush - that's stupid. Furthermore, there's not really such a thing as a turn "blank" when you don't bet the flop. The 3h may look nice but the guy with pocket 3's who checked behind on the flop now has you bent over a barrel.

This play is terrible on so many levels. What do you do on the river if it's the 4c and he pots it? What if he called with 5h6h? Do you snap off his bluff then? His bet size on the end was terrible but that's the only thing that saved you from your own bad play.

My point is that at the $25NL nearly everyone is terrible. Generally the best approach is to bet out to protect your good hands from draws and to fold to heavy aggression from anyone that you don't have noted down as a maniac.

Not to seem results oriented, but in this hand you would have got more value out of your aces by playing them in a straight forward manner since the flush draw guy would have called a bet on the flop and turn.

mj

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I understand pot odds quite well. However I also understand something called implied odds. There are situations where you will have an edge statistically over an opponent (i.e. you will win the hand more times than he over the longer run). But it doesnt just matter who wins the hand, it also matters how much money they get off the other guy when they win as well. He has position on me, and if he hits you have to pay him off whereas if he misses you dont get money from him. So if he wins he gets more money than if I win, so the fact I win more frequently is negated. In these situations, you can actually have odds on someone and still not want to bet, and I believe this is one of those situations.

There are so many draws possible, and I have no idea whether he has hit or not. He could have a pair + flush draw, OESD + flush draw, pair + gutshot + gut shot + flush draw. He could also already have two pair or a set. My point is, betting here causes problems for me, and more likely than not, I'm giving him HUGE implied odds if he does have a better hand than me, and he can back down with little cost if feels his hand isnt good enough. Since top pair (a hand I know I will beat) and middle pair will bet here, I opted for the check-raise instead.

Surf, have you read HoH1? It's geared towards tourney and S&G but I believe it carries over to 25NL pretty well too. It has alot of sample hands and explanation of the thought process behind every move.

I'll plod into this.
While i see what spinoli is trying to elaborate, and it is a point well made, i wouldnt play this style at that level.
Yes, most players dont undertsnad odds etc, and yes enough will call with dominated hands, but position and odds count for a little less at these lower levels. Few if any at 25nl play position, a few more may know about not paying over the top for their draws, but the wont call a pot bet on both the flop and turn whereas as demonstrated they will call an overbet on the turn for the river because omg they are only one card from their flush or straight.
Not to suggest that spinoli is wrong (he has infinitly more experience, br and skill than i) its just that at these levels when they are drawing make em pay. WHen they have second pair and think you have crap make em pay, and especially make em pay when they have Ax to your set or AK/q
Yes they suck, yes they dont know about odds etc, but the profit surely comes from making them pay over the top for cards on both the flop and turn (if they dare) not allowing them free cards to catch hands.
Similarily there is value in chasing your draws becasue they dont hit the pot hard enough when they want to stop draws. They bet an amount on both the flop and turn, without considering how much that bet represents as a percentage of the pot.
Also you are out thinking your opponents here a little. Any one with a set or two pair at this level is going to raise straight back at you believing they have you beat. More advanced opposition will play differently but at this level its more simple.

Quote:

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Surf, have you read HoH1? It's geared towards tourney and S&G but I believe it carries over to 25NL pretty well too. It has alot of sample hands and explanation of the thought process behind every move.

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Yes.

Ok I better explain myself better. I'm not saying I'm a great player compared to others on this board, I consider myself pretty solid compared to most. I'm just smart enough to know that I always have something to learn, and who better to learn it from than the big wigs on this message board.

I have read (at least 2-3 times each) HoH1 and Volume 2. I have also read Theory of Poker, Small stakes Holdem, Hold em for Advanced players, Super system, Caro's book of Tells, Killer Poker Online, I'm also a subscriber to Card Player.

I'm pretty educated in poker, and my play is way more solid then I make it seem, I just feel that I still have a lot to learn, and several big leaks to plug. Also, I won't be satisified until i'm comfortably making money at 100nl & 200nl, and I might not even be satisfied then. I just know theres some top nouch players on this board so my ego is out the door and i'm just a student when I come here.

My problem with 25NL isn't 10-Max, it's 6-Max. 10-Max I can grind it out easily and make an income, but it's boring as hell, so I wanted to step up to 6-Max, and that is where the leak in my game begins.

I know the basics well, the finer details is where my game needs help.

Sample hands with explinations of "why" top players do the things they do is what really helps my game. Keep em comming boys, and thanks a lot. One day I'll be sitting at a table with Spinoil and rilla giving my money away, but I still got a lot of work to do.

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I'll plod into this.
While i see what spinoli is trying to elaborate, and it is a point well made, i wouldnt play this style at that level.
Yes, most players dont undertsnad odds etc, and yes enough will call with dominated hands, but position and odds count for a little less at these lower levels. Few if any at 25nl play position, a few more may know about not paying over the top for their draws, but the wont call a pot bet on both the flop and turn whereas as demonstrated they will call an overbet on the turn for the river because omg they are only one card from their flush or straight.
Not to suggest that spinoli is wrong (he has infinitly more experience, br and skill than i) its just that at these levels when they are drawing make em pay. WHen they have second pair and think you have crap make em pay, and especially make em pay when they have Ax to your set or AK/q
Yes they suck, yes they dont know about odds etc, but the profit surely comes from making them pay over the top for cards on both the flop and turn (if they dare) not allowing them free cards to catch hands.
Similarily there is value in chasing your draws becasue they dont hit the pot hard enough when they want to stop draws. They bet an amount on both the flop and turn, without considering how much that bet represents as a percentage of the pot.
Also you are out thinking your opponents here a little. Any one with a set or two pair at this level is going to raise straight back at you believing they have you beat. More advanced opposition will play differently but at this level its more simple.

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Even at 25 NL 6 max at party people generally dont call a pot-sized bet with middle pair on the flop made by the same person who raised pre-flop. At least not usually without some other outs. And at higher levels of play its completely unheard of unless the opp thinks your bluffing.

Just because the opps dont understand position does not mean they dont get advantage from having it. They just dont understand why they have the advantage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spino1i

BR now: 24415$
Playing now: 5/10 nl 10 max (7/10 stacked), 5/10 nl 6 max (5/10 stacked), 20+2 SnG's
Goal: 40000$ to start 10/20 nl 10 max, October 1st

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You need to have at least a vague understanding of fractions to ever have a chance of comtemplating pot odds.

I do quite like the play in this hand but i think it is going to get less experienced players in trouble if they try to emulate it. You can easily put the read on a guy drawing to something and you're confident that they missed on the river and called their bluff. However if you are actually playing 25NL because thats where you're at in your poker career these things are not so obvious and you may end up calling on the river when you're beat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Legendash

I do quite like the play in this hand but i think it is going to get less experienced players in trouble if they try to emulate it. You can easily put the read on a guy drawing to something and you're confident that they missed on the river and called their bluff. However if you are actually playing 25NL because thats where you're at in your poker career these things are not so obvious and you may end up calling on the river when you're beat.

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This is a good point. I do think it was quite interesting hearing your analysis though, spino1i. What would be even more interesting is to hear the same thoughts on some 5/10NL hands.

Oh and I was jus kiddin in the above post :D