These hands are hard to play...

How do you play hands like these when you flop top pair out of position and are called on the flop. Then on the turn the flush draw is completed. This could have been a weak fold, but I feel that he had the flush here.

PokerStars Game #2346308247: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/08/15 - 18:54:55 (ET)
Table 'Ennomos II' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: andr3w321 ($165.20 in chips)
Seat 3: jringo99 ($121.60 in chips)
Seat 4: IMALLIN007 ($47.85 in chips)
Seat 6: TheCardigans ($57.80 in chips)
andr3w321: posts small blind $1
jringo99: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to andr3w321 [:Js: :Kc:]
IMALLIN007: folds
TheCardigans: calls $2
andr3w321: calls $1
jringo99: checks
*** FLOP *** [:Jd: :7d: :Tc:]
andr3w321: bets $6
jringo99: folds
TheCardigans: calls $6
*** TURN *** [Jd 7d Tc] [:8d:]
peakflow19 joins the table at seat #5
andr3w321: checks
coactor joins the table at seat #1
TheCardigans: checks
*** RIVER *** [Jd 7d Tc 8d] [:2s:]
andr3w321: checks
TheCardigans: bets $10
andr3w321: folds
TheCardigans collected $17.15 from pot
TheCardigans: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18 | Rake $0.85
Board [Jd 7d Tc 8d 2s]
Seat 2: andr3w321 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 3: jringo99 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: IMALLIN007 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: TheCardigans (button) collected ($17.15)

I think you have to assume your ahead and bet it anyway. Otherwise dont play it OOP i suppose.
There will be so few hands out there it would be difficult to see you beat. AJ is the only hand that would beat your TPGK, and surely that would have been raised?
Their are so many potential scare cards that could come on the turn that you want it now if possible (thats if you havent walked into a straight)

The more I think about this hand the more I realize how sure I am that I was beat here. The only legitimate hand that I can beat is QJ. AJ and J7-J9 all have me beat as well as any 2 diamonds. Most tens have me beat here as well.

Still, in general when you flop top pair out of position, how do you go about handling a turn like this? If you bet, how do you handle the river if the villain just calls? A check by you will most certainly induce a bet by the villain regardless of his cards with this stream of betting.

I think you played it fine, turn card was real ugly. Not only the flush but alsow most str8 draws. Checking is the right move. I only see 2 hands you beat that he might play like that, AT and QJ.

QK and AK are possible holdings, too, as well as some low pocket pairs. This is four-handed, after all. Any read on your opponent? If you check the turn, he could (and should) literally bet the river with any two cards. I think this hand really comes down to your evaluation of villain's play. If he was loose/passive, I might put in another 1/2 pot bet on the turn and fold to any aggression, check/folding the river. If he was tricky/aggressive, I might check the turn, same, and call the river knowing that I will catch a lot of bluffs here b/c of my passive line. I don't think your line is too horrible here, as every conceivable draw got there on the turn. Another plausible line is to put a raise in preflop (3bb) and clarify villain's holdings as well as take control of the hand, making it harder for him to smooth call your flop bet with air/overs/longshot draws/midpair.

I'd suggest that you're definatly ahead when the flop comes down until the turn.
If someone has a straight would they not raise to protect against the flush draw behind you? Any raise behind you forces you to fold i feel (probably weak but certainly safe)
The only two pair you may have run into is JT (which would be unlucky imo) are not the other hands unlikely? eg J7 is that a regular calling hand unless on the bb? but again would you not expect a reraise to protect from possible draws?
Therfore when you get called and a scare card appears along with a bet on the river you have to show respect, be pissed and fold. Outdrawn.
If it was a safe flop eg no obvious draws etc i'd be tempted to check raise any flop betting, but here that is just not an option. You either commit yourself to trying to win the pot here (and therefore hope you arent beat already) or you check it and if scare cards appear throw it away.
I believe your style is quite aggro (correct?) so i'd bet this too then force fold the river which by that time has made your hand probably third best at least.

One danger to the above suggestions -- check/fold when scare card hits -- is it gives an OESD 9 more outs for his hand. In other words, if I see you bet to protect against a flush draw on a 2 suited flop and fold to a small bet when it hits, I can profitably call with any piece of the flop, or even a gutshot, when I play against you -- knowing that I have 9 additional scare outs with which I can take the pot down. Although lower buyin NL opponents might not catch on to this tendancy of yours, check-folding the turn here leaves you open to this exploitation of your strategy by thinking, tricky opponents. Leading the turn, even though it might cost you a few more dollars when you're behind, will both make this kind of play more difficult for opponents to run, and will clarify the hand making your decision more clear. That's why I think leading for 1/2 the pot on the turn is necessary, folding to a raise.

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One danger to the above suggestions -- check/fold when scare card hits -- is it gives an OESD 9 more outs for his hand. In other words, if I see you bet to protect against a flush draw on a 2 suited flop and fold to a small bet when it hits, I can profitably call with any piece of the flop, or even a gutshot, when I play against you -- knowing that I have 9 additional scare outs with which I can take the pot down. Although lower buyin NL opponents might not catch on to this tendancy of yours, check-folding the turn here leaves you open to this exploitation of your strategy by thinking, tricky opponents. Leading the turn, even though it might cost you a few more dollars when you're behind, will both make this kind of play more difficult for opponents to run, and will clarify the hand making your decision more clear. That's why I think leading for 1/2 the pot on the turn is necessary, folding to a raise

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Ok agreed.
But.
How often will this scenario arise? (i suggest not a lot but feel free to correct me if i am wrong. both flush and oesds available)
I dont mind the scenario you are painting as my play on that sort of board would be to bet the flush draw anyway. Therefore if i build the typical defend my hand play and then mix this in too i make a stack when i catch a flush. I only suggest this as it is the tactic i use where occasion permits. Similarily i would be watching for you doing this tactic of bluffing scare when playing eg do i get to see a showdown where you show the flush/straight. Or do you not get looked up. If ive seen you bluff hands like this it affects my call. yes, ill let you buy some of these pots off me but this is an easy pot to put down a hand whereas its also a difficult and marginal hand to decide if your ahead in and potentailly a costful one if you are not. The benefit of folding to real or bluff aggression outweighs any benefits of being ahead in this situation and certainly outweighs the possibility of being behind and losing this one hand imo.
On a final note would not the completed flush draw simply flat call the turn bet anyway in the hope of getting you to commit more chips on the river either leading out or check/calling?

Anyone want to check the flop?

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Anyone want to check the flop?

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What information would you gain by checking? On a side note, how would you have played this hand if it were limit?