How come I make bad calls?

Hand #1)Boy do I feel like an idiot after this hand
First- Preflop was horrible...dont know why I limped in EP...
Second-I decided to try out some bluffing....minraised looked weak to me, maybe a king
Third-I thought he could definately not have a K now....maybe a 5, so I bet to find out....
Fourth-I thought this was my gin card......do you call here?
I know everything up to the river was terrible, but say you get that far, do you call?

Hand #2)-On tilt from Hand#1-
Since I was on tilt when the J came, I didnt notice the straight draw...I thought I would slowplay and drop if the flush card hit. I know that this was a terrible play, but do you call here?....I just thought there was no way he would hold a 6 for a raise at this point....maybe just tilt talking.

I hate when I resort back to fishiness after a bit of a good run..... :evil:

FullTiltPoker Game #186968389: Table Civic Center - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:47:38 ET - 2005/08/16
Seat 1: clay1460 ($18.05)
Seat 2: tqo ($8.10)
Seat 3: cisman ($14.55)
Seat 4: ndnick25 ($5.25)
Seat 5: tha bad guy ($12.95)
Seat 6: buttsman20 ($2.85)
Seat 7: BobbySalami ($15.80)
Seat 8: gafjxe ($3.85)
Seat 9: mspryan ($2.90)
ndnick25 has 5 seconds left to act
ndnick25 is sitting out
ndnick25 has timed out
tha bad guy posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BobbySalami [9d Td]
buttsman20 calls $0.10
BobbySalami calls $0.10
gafjxe folds
mspryan folds
clay1460 folds
tqo folds
cisman folds
tha bad guy checks
*** FLOP *** [Kd Kc 5s]
tha bad guy checks
buttsman20 checks
BobbySalami bets $0.25
ndnick25 has returned
tha bad guy raises to $0.50
buttsman20 folds
BobbySalami calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [Kd Kc 5s] [Ks]
tha bad guy checks
BobbySalami bets $0.80
tha bad guy calls $0.80
*** RIVER *** [Kd Kc 5s Ks] [Th]
tha bad guy bets $11.55, and is all in
BobbySalami calls $11.55
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tha bad guy shows [Kh Qs] (four of a kind, Kings)
BobbySalami mucks
tha bad guy wins the pot ($24.70) with four of a kind, Kings
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $26 | Rake $1.30
Board: [Kd Kc 5s Ks Th]
Seat 1: clay1460 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: tqo didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cisman (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: ndnick25 (small blind) is sitting out
Seat 5: tha bad guy (big blind) showed [Kh Qs] and won ($24.70) with four of a kind, Kings
Seat 6: buttsman20 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: BobbySalami mucked [9d Td] - a full house, Kings full of Tens
Seat 8: gafjxe didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: mspryan didn't bet (folded)


FullTiltPoker Game #186974830: Table Civic Center - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:54:47 ET - 2005/08/16
Seat 1: clay1460 ($19.20)
Seat 2: tqo ($7.05)
Seat 3: cisman ($14.45)
Seat 5: tha bad guy ($24.35)
Seat 6: buttsman20 ($2)
Seat 7: BobbySalami ($10)
Seat 8: gafjxe ($3.70)
Seat 9: mspryan ($3.40)
cisman posts the small blind of $0.05
tha bad guy posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BobbySalami [Jc Ad]
buttsman20 folds
BobbySalami raises to $0.35
gafjxe folds
mspryan folds
clay1460 calls $0.35
tqo folds
cisman folds
tha bad guy folds
*** FLOP *** [7c 3d 4c]
BobbySalami checks
1Krister sits down
clay1460 checks
*** TURN *** [7c 3d 4c] [Jd]
1Krister adds $4
BobbySalami checks
clay1460 checks
*** RIVER *** [7c 3d 4c Jd] [5s]
BobbySalami checks
clay1460 bets $1.50
BobbySalami: got a 6?
BobbySalami has 15 seconds left to act
BobbySalami calls $1.50
clay1460: pay to see
*** SHOW DOWN ***
clay1460 shows [Qh 6h] (a straight, Seven high)
BobbySalami mucks
clay1460 wins the pot ($3.70) with a straight, Seven high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.85 | Rake $0.15
Board: [7c 3d 4c Jd 5s]
Seat 1: clay1460 showed [Qh 6h] and won ($3.70) with a straight, Seven high
Seat 2: tqo (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cisman (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: tha bad guy (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: buttsman20 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: BobbySalami mucked [Jc Ad] - a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: gafjxe didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: mspryan didn't bet (folded)

Your not the only one...

FullTiltPoker Game #186423263: Table Hinson - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:24:50 ET - 2005/08/16
Seat 1: VIENTO ($96.70)
Seat 2: Barax ($50.05)
Seat 3: MbhCsu ($16.20)
Seat 4: Ferve ($62.35)
Seat 5: table scraps ($47.20)
Seat 6: ToddRRT93 ($14.80)
Seat 7: mozzkllr79 ($54.40)
Seat 8: KwiHwan ($53.70)
Seat 9: trentt47 ($18.75)
Barax posts the small blind of $0.25
MbhCsu posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Barax [Ts Td]
Ferve calls $0.50
table scraps calls $0.50
ToddRRT93 calls $0.50
mozzkllr79 has 15 seconds left to act
mozzkllr79 folds
KwiHwan folds
trentt47 folds
VIENTO calls $0.50
Barax calls $0.25
MbhCsu checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc Qs 7c]
Barax checks
MbhCsu checks
Ferve bets $1.50
table scraps calls $1.50
ToddRRT93 folds
VIENTO folds
Barax raises to $4
KwiHwan stands up
MbhCsu folds
Ferve calls $2.50
table scraps calls $2.50
*** TURN *** [Tc Qs 7c] [9d]
Barax bets $5
Ferve calls $5
table scraps raises to $25.50
Barax has 15 seconds left to act
Barax calls $20.50
Ferve folds
*** RIVER *** [Tc Qs 7c 9d] [4h]
Barax checks
table scraps bets $17.20, and is all in
Barax has 15 seconds left to act
Barax: KJ?
Barax calls $17.20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
table scraps shows [Kc Jc] (a straight, King high)
Barax mucks
table scraps wins the pot ($102.40) with a straight, King high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $105.40 | Rake $3
Board: [Tc Qs 7c 9d 4h]
Seat 1: VIENTO (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Barax (small blind) mucked [Ts Td] - three of a kind, Tens
Seat 3: MbhCsu (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Ferve folded on the Turn
Seat 5: table scraps showed [Kc Jc] and won ($102.40) with a straight, King high
Seat 6: ToddRRT93 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: mozzkllr79 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: KwiHwan didn't bet (folded)

im sorry but that first hand is really awful.. he has overbet the pot soo much that its simply not worth the river call considering what u've invested. Just cos theres 3 Ks out on board doesnt mean he hasnt got one, your looking at a split pot or beat most the time here...

Only if i had him pegged as a complete maniac wud i even consider this call and even then i probably wouldnt bother. Its not a tourny, you have all the time in the world in a ring game, give the hand up and wait for a better opportunity to get ur hard earned $ in the middle. I posted a fairly simular HH a few days back where i held TT and board came TKK K.. just get the hell outa there when ur facing aggression back at ya.

All this also relates to the 2nd hand, he's way overbet the pot and uve just seen him do exactly that with the nuts! so whats he got this time? probly the nuts again and its not worth calling that huge overbet to find out.

One thing ive noticed about tilt is that it envolves some wierd grip on you where it pulls you to the tables and makes you feel like you have to carry on playing to win some $$ back or play thru the tilt. ..this is where you need to be strong and think realisticly and quit when its clear your not playing anywhere near you A game.

I know, I felt like such a complete asshat after that hand....every street I played terribly...i wish I would have folded PF like I should have.......

Its bad calls like these that prevent me from leaving the 0.05/010 level...I just cant stop doing it...its too enticing to make the call it seems. Any tips on how to avoid doing it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobbySalami

Its bad calls like these that prevent me from leaving the 0.05/010 level...I just cant stop doing it...its too enticing to make the call it seems. Any tips on how to avoid doing it?

---

Play limit instead. You don't seem to be the No-Limit type.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobbySalami

Its bad calls like these that prevent me from leaving the 0.05/010 level...I just cant stop doing it...its too enticing to make the call it seems. Any tips on how to avoid doing it?

---

Play limit instead. You don't seem to be the No-Limit type.

---

Ouch that hurts........ :D

I tried limit...I dont get any entertainment out of it which is half the fun.

discipline. all those small (or large) saved bets add up.

don't lose your stack in an unraised pot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobbySalami

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fnord

Play limit instead. You don't seem to be the No-Limit type.

---

Ouch that hurts........ :D

I tried limit...I dont get any entertainment out of it which is half the fun.

---

I wasn't making a dig on you. If you're not into acting on reads, making big decions and like to showdown hands limit is a better fit.

The regular posters in the Limit forum are all getting a lot of entertainment cashing out...

I know you werent Fnord...

I like the excitement of making big decisions, and I hate showing down hands if I dont have the nuts, but I have trouble reading people at my stakes....I only have 110 hours of experience, I think I am just having trouble acting on my reads correctly.

I was praying he would fold the whole time, but the huge overbet could have been a variety of hands and I though AA, KK, QQ, JJ were not possibilities based on no PF raise......geuss my eyes got big when the T hit.

EDIT: Also the second one was purely tilt........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TopThis

discipline. all those small (or large) saved bets add up.

don't lose your stack in an unraised pot.

---

ahhhh...thats good advice. I will stickie that to my computer and use it as my mantra!

maybe you should try a slightly higher blinds, like 25-50 cent. This might force you to play more disciplined and also, it's somewhat easier to get a read on what a guy has. I've played the 10-cent blinds and I do really terribly, end up calling anything just because I think "hey it's only 50 cents."

also you might want to try small buy-in tournaments. people play somewhat more predictably at various stages of the tournament. this worked for me, as I found I was a much better tourney player than small blinds player.

0.25/0.50 is clearly out of my roll as you can see in my sig and would be a terribly bad idea IMO.....but$10 is an extremely large amount of money to me still...as is $0.50 PF....so I have plenty of discipline until the river it seems....if he reraises me during this hand more than a minraise I am out of the hand no doubt about it.....but that river just looked so appealing.

I just had a thought, not sure if it will help you, but it did help me quite a bit...

Buy poker tracker....

I can look at all my biggest losing hands and see what I did wrong.

For example, seeing how much I have lost in the past on AT is what really started making me really
tighten up.

I really, really, really want to buy poker tracker.....but it would have to come out of my roll, and my roll cant afford that. Plus, it doesnt support Full Tilt quite yet............

I know it would help me plug some leaks in my game, plus I think i will wait til I am at a bit higher limits where I believe the info would be more valuable.

Move your roll to PokerStars. The games there are softer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobbySalami

I really, really, really want to buy poker tracker.....but it would have to come out of my roll, and my roll cant afford that. Plus, it doesnt support Full Tilt quite yet............

I know it would help me plug some leaks in my game, plus I think i will wait til I am at a bit higher limits where I believe the info would be more valuable.

---

Ring isnt "supported", but does work, just check the PT forums for the download.

Personaly, I'd take the money out for poker tracker right now, it's just $55 .. I know that poker tracker made a big diffrence in my profit.. I think it's more important than getting to the next limit. (not that I can promise that it will help you like it did me)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fnord

Move your roll to PokerStars. The games there are softer.

---

Really?...Full tilt is the only site I've ever played on, I just assumed it was just as fishy as the next......but maybe Ill give it a shot.

Party Poker is REALLY REALLY fishy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laeelin

Party Poker is REALLY REALLY fishy

---

They aint got small enough stakes to support my micro roll.....

Yeah, but your getting close. =)

On the limit/no-limit thing:

I used to dislike limit. I didn't like it because I didn't like the discipline. But if you want to be a winning poker player you have to have discipline. And discipline is EASIER in Limit than NL.

Classic example above:
Barax: KJ?
Barax calls $17.20

Knowing when you're beat is a skill you need to have. Being act on that knowledge properly is vital. You have to be prepared to give up a hand whenever you have good reason to believe you're beat.
One thing I remember and try to keep in mind every single time I'm going to make a decision is that as of that exact moment I am exatly even, and the decision I make then is going to determine whether I'm going to make or lose money.

I like sitting at tables with people who complain about limit being too boring because I know they're the guys who will chase action when they shouldn't. :) I play B&M often. I hear it often, and it makes me money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lamaros

Knowing when you're beat is a skill you need to have. Being act on that knowledge properly is vital. You have to be prepared to give up a hand whenever you have good reason to believe you're beat.
.

---

I don't totally agree with that. There are times in limit that I am 90% sure I am beat but to call just requires $1 into a $13 dollar pot. I am getting 1:13 on my money, so pot odds dictate a call, whether or not I think I'm beat, because in the long run, I'll make money on this call.

Yeah, but limit can be easier for a newcommer to learn poker because we play more "show and tell" than the no limit folks who are more often playing a big game of showdown chicken or nut peddling.

Bobby at our stakes Ive given up trying to play excellent judo poker and making big plays and bluffs based on reads.... bugger that most here are just poker simpletons and playing good TAG ABC poker is very very effective, i just sit with 4-5 tables open and grind it out building the roll. At the same time your getting great experience and can still focus on improving your game... seeing as I can beat .1/.2 5tabling without any reads on anyone, thats how im gonna play it. When I moved to .15/.3 also I focused more but now Im used to that I can pretty much play there also just the same.

Also about making the calls, its all about discipline as someone said... and this is a very important thing in NL maybe you should by Zen and the Art of Poker or something and try and discipline urself more.

Limit is less streaky because you don't lose your stack to a big outdraw, just the pot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iopq

Limit is less streaky because you don't lose your stack to a big outdraw, just the pot.

---

No Limit is less streaky because the pots you're playing with garbage hands in dinky blind wars aren't usually as big as the ones where you're beating up some fish with a 2:1 or better edge.

Limit is a war of attrition. Push small edges over time and build a big pile of cash. NL is picking up on weaknesses in your opponents and going for the kill.

I've recently joined Full Tilt. Poker Tracker supports it.
I've found it to be heavy going so far though--there is too much preflop action for my liking, and I have to play a quite different game to the way I play at Tribeca.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SinkRox

Bobby at our stakes Ive given up trying to play excellent judo poker and making big plays and bluffs based on reads.... bugger that most here are just poker simpletons and playing good TAG ABC poker is very very effective, i just sit with 4-5 tables open and grind it out building the roll. At the same time your getting great experience and can still focus on improving your game... seeing as I can beat .1/.2 5tabling without any reads on anyone, thats how im gonna play it. When I moved to .15/.3 also I focused more but now Im used to that I can pretty much play there also just the same.

Also about making the calls, its all about discipline as someone said... and this is a very important thing in NL maybe you should by Zen and the Art of Poker or something and try and discipline urself more.

---

Yah, i understand you there.....boredome gets in the way sometimes....maybe I should start 2 or 3 tabling...........but how does bankroll management apply here, because I certainly wouldnt want to loose 2 or 3 buyins at the same time if bad luck came around which would tilt me bad.

Maybe I will look in to the book you suggested.

IMO: The number of tables has nothing to do with bankroll...as long as you do not tilt!!!!!

Yea I have about the same amount of cash that you do Bobby - started with $50 in June at Pacific - it's at $230 now - and 2 weeks ago just added $50 to Poker Champs - only $75 there are this point, but basically allows me to 2-3 table.
Running 3 tables takes a little getting used to (just start with 2 for the first night, and up it when you are comfortable), but it's definitely doable.

Now what I'm wondering is how the hell Laeelin started with less money than me, after me, and has nearly 10 times the winnings! Must be I suck at poker :P

Oh, and btw I'm playing the same limits that you are playing - .05/.10 on both sites.

BR management is exactly the same! thats the beauty of it, your simply playing hands faster.

If you have a rule where you quit playing if you dip 2 buy-ins or something you can still stick to that, you may want to increase it slightly as this will happen slightly quicker than before. You should deff add an extra table, i wouldnt jump straight to 3 straight away.

I could never play one table of low stakes now, if i did i would have to have TV on, something to read, music on, and FTR lol

Quote:

---

Now what I'm wondering is how the hell Laeelin started with less money than me, after me, and has nearly 10 times the winnings! Must be I suck at poker

---

Rember, that was a restart (i've been playing for about 8-9 months)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SinkRox

BR management is exactly the same! thats the beauty of it, your simply playing hands faster.

If you have a rule where you quit playing if you dip 2 buy-ins or something you can still stick to that, you may want to increase it slightly as this will happen slightly quicker than before. You should deff add an extra table, i wouldnt jump straight to 3 straight away.

I could never play one table of low stakes now, if i did i would have to have TV on, something to read, music on, and FTR lol

---

I usually quit after I drop around a buy-in given that I'm still learning to control my emotions after a bad beat, or in this case a bad call.

Maybe I will give 2 tables a shot tonight and see how it goes...but if I come back with another bad call post im blaming you.... :lol: j/k

Discipline made a huge difference to my game. 2 tabling made an equal difference to my discipline. First I learned discipline which turned my game from roller coaster(breakeven) to profitable. Then I found that 2 tabling made discipline that much easier. I used to think 2 tabling was too busy and now I am thinking adding a 3rd table.

Learn your discipline. Tight is right (for 10 ring).
Try multitabling to help with the discipline.

Well I have a couple questions for you Eric since it seems we are somewhat in the same boat.

When you began 2-tabling are you only playing monsters...or are you throwing in an occasional suited connector in LP?.....and also are you ever in a position where you are in 2 big hands at the same time and end up making mistakes because you are making big decisions at the same time and end up loosing more than you wanted to?

Thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BobbySalami

Well I have a couple questions for you Eric since it seems we are somewhat in the same boat.

When you began 2-tabling are you only playing monsters...or are you throwing in an occasional suited connector in LP?.....and also are you ever in a position where you are in 2 big hands at the same time and end up making mistakes because you are making big decisions at the same time and end up loosing more than you wanted to?

Thanks

---

I don’t play loose enough for SCs unless I am having a cold run of cards. About the only time I throw in SCs is when I have had only 5 playable hands in an hr. I guess one reason being that SCs and blinds take more concentration than your big hands. Still, multitabling is a learned skill. At first it seemed busy but it got easier as time went on. I have made a couple of mistakes playing hands due to multitabling, but only a few. The mistakes don’t add up to enough $ to worry about. Playing tight, it is rare that you get hard hands on both tables; it does happen but very rarely.

Like you I have been reluctant to take the hit to my BR to buy poker programs. But I recently bit the bullet and cashed out enough for PokerOffice. I bought PO first instead of PT specifically because it will help with decisions when multitabling. I had a situation last night where I folded to an AI on the turn. After reviewing the HH for the hand I saw that he checked the flop. This was a case where if I had known that, I would have called his AI (who knows, I still may have lost it. Hehe) Luckily, having that read on him I was able to call an AI from him about 30mins later and take his stack (yay for patience). Anyway, what I was trying to say is that PO will help because it shows the players actions taken during that hand so you have that info even if you were on another table when it took place.

Edit: for clarity, I don't have PO yet, waiting on the cash out.

Fnord. I'm a NL sng and cash game player (havent been very succesfull in ring yet tho) and I think about moving to limit ring. I have only played VERY little limit before, so what limits (and at what sites) and what book would you recommend (SSH og Lee Jones?)?

EricE most sites display all past actions from players in a easy to read text box.. if u play at pacific or somewhere that doesnt that sux, if u dont fix up PO id recommend moving as this info is so useful