My best read ever.

Hand history is terrible at bodog, but I had the read and I wanted to post it.

The Poacher Set dealer/Bring in spot 8 20:24:56
_deadmoney Ante/Small blind $ 5.00 20:24:56
mMagic_Cards Big blind/Bring in $ 10.00 20:24:56
mMagic_Cards Card dealt to a spot 5 6 20:24:56
XGM Card dealt to a spot 20:24:56
partypeter Card dealt to a spot Q K 20:24:56
The_Friar Card dealt to a spot 20:24:56
Agent Hargis Card dealt to a spot 20:24:56
out2getya Card dealt to a spot 20:24:56
System Card dealt to a spot 20:24:56
The Poacher Card dealt to a spot 20:24:56
_deadmoney Card dealt to a spot 20:24:56
XGM Fold $ 0.00 20:25:13
partypeter Raise $ 35.00 20:25:16
The_Friar Fold $ 0.00 20:25:22
Agent Hargis Fold $ 0.00 20:25:39
out2getya Fold $ 0.00 20:25:42
System Fold $ 0.00 20:25:45
The Poacher Fold $ 0.00 20:25:45
_deadmoney Fold $ 5.00 20:25:46
mMagic_Cards Call $ 25.00 20:25:47
Betting round completed Last active pot = $75.00 20:25:47
Card dealt to table 6 8 2 20:25:47
mMagic_Cards Check 20:25:50
partypeter Bet $ 50.00 20:25:54
mMagic_Cards Call $ 50.00 20:25:56
Betting round completed Last active pot = $175.00 20:25:56
Card dealt to table 4 20:25:56
mMagic_Cards Check 20:26:00
XGM Sit out next hand 20:26:01
partypeter Bet $ 120.00 20:26:05
mMagic_Cards Call $ 120.00 20:26:10
Betting round completed Last active pot = $415.00 20:26:10
Card dealt to table 10 20:26:10
mMagic_Cards Check 20:26:14
partypeter Bet $ 250.00 20:26:29
mMagic_Cards Call $ 250.00 20:26:37 Rake amount $ 3.00 20:26:37
Betting round completed Last active pot = $912.00 20:26:37
partypeter Showdown Show card: High Card
K Q 10 8 6 20:26:37
mMagic_Cards Showdown Show card: Pair
6 6 10 8 5 20:26:37

mMagic_Cards Hand result $ 912.00 20:26:37

Quote:

---

Hero Posts BB 10$
Villain Raises to 35$
Hero Calls 25$

Flop :6h: :8d: :2d:

Hero Checks
Villain Bets 50$
Hero Calls 50$

Turn :4c:

Hero Checks
Villain Bets 120$
Hero Calls 120$

River :Tc:

Hero Checks
Villain Bets 250$
Hero Calls 250$

SHOWDOWN

Villain shows HIGH CARD KING
:Kh: :qs: :tc: :8d: :6d:

Hero shows Pair: Sixes

:6d: :6c: :tc: :8d: :5d:

Hero wins Main pot ($912.00 )

---

His play is completely consistent with an overpair, you just guessed he didn't have one and were right. How is that a great read? He flips over J-J through A-A probably 90% of the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dsaxton

His play is completely consistent with an overpair, you just guessed he didn't have one and were right. How is that a great read? He flips over J-J through A-A probably 90% of the time.

---

Because I just knew. The way he was playing I just knew he had high cards. I actually had him on Ax diamonds. I wouldn't have called a bet that was much larger.

If u had him on overs, especially diamonds, why did you let him draw?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ville18

If u had him on overs, especially diamonds, why did you let him draw?

---

interesting question, but if he put him on overs + diamonds, he had to realize he was an underdog.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ville18

If u had him on overs, especially diamonds, why did you let him draw?

---

First off, like someone said I'm still behind. I dislike putting my money in behind.

Second, if he only has overs, he is going to fold to my raise and call if he has a pocket pair. Raising gives me a small bit if folding equity, which I believe is not worth it if I'm wrong, which is will some % of the time.

Third, I'm out of position. I'd have to continue my bet on the turn, and then would have to fold to a raise and be out even more chips.

Fourth, If I am correct like I believe I am, he will continue adding chips into the pot, and on the river I'm likely to face the largest bet. He has AKd and is ahead. I check and call the flop. A good card comes on the turn for me, he bets I call. A river diamond comes he bets I fold.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot with that I have 47% equity in (if he does have axd).

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$+ pot that I have 22% equity in (if he has an overpair). If my 2 pair or trips, or straight come I win a lot more then just 900$, so I just added a +.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot that I have 77% equity in (if he has what he actually did)

With a very strong read...

I fold pre flop. I fold the flop. I fold the turn. I fold the river.

nh :cool:

You called down weak and won. Congratulations. You did however grosely misplay the hand.

On the flop or turn you have to raise for information. In this case I raise the turn because flop raises on rag boards are vulnerable to overpair representations by aggressive players. It's better to raise the turn holding a small pair you suspect is best because your aggressive opponent is less likely to bully with nothing because they feel more beat. It gives you a solid read.

You call this a great read, yet you didn't truly extract one. This is what you call a good general read on an overaggressive player, and you picked the right time to play sherriff with a very weak hand.

This is -EV. It's bad lucky poker. You wanna play the player? Raise for info. You called a huge $250 river bet in the dark when a ten dropped. Nasty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rondavu

You called down weak and won. Congratulations. You did however grosely misplay the hand.

On the flop or turn you have to raise for information. In this case I raise the turn because flop raises on rag boards are vulnerable to overpair representations by aggressive players. It's better to raise the turn holding a small pair you suspect is best because your aggressive opponent is less likely to bully with nothing because they feel more beat. It gives you a solid read.

You call this a great read, yet you didn't truly extract one. This is what you call a good general read on an overaggressive player, and you picked the right time to play sherriff with a very weak hand.

This is -EV. It's bad lucky poker. You wanna play the player? Raise for info. You called a huge $250 river bet in the dark when a ten dropped. Nasty.

---

Sigh... And people wonder why all the better players stop posting here. I clearly outlined my play, yet you refuse to read it and just all out bash. :roll:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ville18

If u had him on overs, especially diamonds, why did you let him draw?

---

First off, like someone said I'm still behind. I dislike putting my money in behind.

Second, if he only has overs, he is going to fold to my raise and call if he has a pocket pair. Raising gives me a small bit if folding equity, which I believe is not worth it if I'm wrong, which is will some % of the time.

Third, I'm out of position. I'd have to continue my bet on the turn, and then would have to fold to a raise and be out even more chips.

Fourth, If I am correct like I believe I am, he will continue adding chips into the pot, and on the river I'm likely to face the largest bet. He has AKd and is ahead. I check and call the flop. A good card comes on the turn for me, he bets I call. A river diamond comes he bets I fold.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot with that I have 47% equity in (if he does have axd).

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$+ pot that I have 22% equity in (if he has an overpair). If my 2 pair or trips, or straight come I win a lot more then just 900$, so I just added a +.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot that I have 77% equity in (if he has what he actually did)

---

How is it bad if he folds overcards? This is like saying "I didn't want to bet my overpair because he'd just fold his flush draw." You chose to gamble all the way to the river with a marginal hand, which is ok, I guess, but most people would prefer not to.

Also, you said that he'll call a flop check-raise with an overpair, and that'll you'll have to continue your bet on the turn. This makes no sense. If he calls your flop raise and you infer he has an overpair, why can't you just check-fold on the turn knowing that you're probably way behind and will have a difficult time bluffing him out?

There are probably a variety of ways to play this hand, but you have to admit that yours gave you almost no read on his hand, and left you calling huge bets on a pure guess.

And your math doesn't make any sense either. How could you possibly risk only $170 in a heads-up pot to win $900? You're obviously going to have to risk at least what you expect to win if you're correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ville18

If u had him on overs, especially diamonds, why did you let him draw?

---

First off, like someone said I'm still behind. I dislike putting my money in behind.

Second, if he only has overs, he is going to fold to my raise and call if he has a pocket pair. Raising gives me a small bit if folding equity, which I believe is not worth it if I'm wrong, which is will some % of the time.

Third, I'm out of position. I'd have to continue my bet on the turn, and then would have to fold to a raise and be out even more chips.

Fourth, If I am correct like I believe I am, he will continue adding chips into the pot, and on the river I'm likely to face the largest bet. He has AKd and is ahead. I check and call the flop. A good card comes on the turn for me, he bets I call. A river diamond comes he bets I fold.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot with that I have 47% equity in (if he does have axd).

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$+ pot that I have 22% equity in (if he has an overpair). If my 2 pair or trips, or straight come I win a lot more then just 900$, so I just added a +.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot that I have 77% equity in (if he has what he actually did)

---

How is it bad if he folds overcards? This is like saying "I didn't want to bet my overpair because he'd just fold his flush draw." You chose to gamble all the way to the river with a marginal hand, which is ok, I guess, but most people would prefer not to.

Also, you said that he'll call a flop check-raise with an overpair, and that'll you'll have to continue your bet on the turn. This makes no sense. If he calls your flop raise and you infer he has an overpair, why can't you just check-fold on the turn knowing that you're probably way behind and will have a difficult time bluffing him out?

There are probably a variety of ways to play this hand, but you have to admit that yours gave you almost no read on his hand, and left you calling huge bets on a pure guess.

And your math doesn't make any sense either. How could you possibly risk only $170 in a heads-up pot to win $900? You're obviously going to have to risk at least what you expect to win if you're correct.

---

It makes full sense. I have to call a 50$ flop bet and 120$ turn bet = 170$. If the river comes and is a diamond JQKA I fold. If it is my gin card I check raise, if it is a blank I check call. I'm risking 170$.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ville18

If u had him on overs, especially diamonds, why did you let him draw?

---

First off, like someone said I'm still behind. I dislike putting my money in behind.

Second, if he only has overs, he is going to fold to my raise and call if he has a pocket pair. Raising gives me a small bit if folding equity, which I believe is not worth it if I'm wrong, which is will some % of the time.

Third, I'm out of position. I'd have to continue my bet on the turn, and then would have to fold to a raise and be out even more chips.

Fourth, If I am correct like I believe I am, he will continue adding chips into the pot, and on the river I'm likely to face the largest bet. He has AKd and is ahead. I check and call the flop. A good card comes on the turn for me, he bets I call. A river diamond comes he bets I fold.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot with that I have 47% equity in (if he does have axd).

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$+ pot that I have 22% equity in (if he has an overpair). If my 2 pair or trips, or straight come I win a lot more then just 900$, so I just added a +.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot that I have 77% equity in (if he has what he actually did)

---

How is it bad if he folds overcards? This is like saying "I didn't want to bet my overpair because he'd just fold his flush draw." You chose to gamble all the way to the river with a marginal hand, which is ok, I guess, but most people would prefer not to.

Also, you said that he'll call a flop check-raise with an overpair, and that'll you'll have to continue your bet on the turn. This makes no sense. If he calls your flop raise and you infer he has an overpair, why can't you just check-fold on the turn knowing that you're probably way behind and will have a difficult time bluffing him out?

There are probably a variety of ways to play this hand, but you have to admit that yours gave you almost no read on his hand, and left you calling huge bets on a pure guess.

And your math doesn't make any sense either. How could you possibly risk only $170 in a heads-up pot to win $900? You're obviously going to have to risk at least what you expect to win if you're correct.

---

It makes full sense. I have to call a 50$ flop bet and 120$ turn bet = 170$. If the river comes and is a diamond JQKA I fold. If it is my gin card I check raise, if it is a blank I check call. I'm risking 170$.

---

You check-call what on the river? A $0 bet (since you're only risking $170 in the hand) which somehow causes the pot to have $900 in it?

You are correct that on the flop and turn you have only risked around $170, but the pot doesn't contain $900 on the turn. It contains $900 on the river after you call a substantial bet, at which point you've risked more than $170. This is pretty simple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ville18

If u had him on overs, especially diamonds, why did you let him draw?

---

First off, like someone said I'm still behind. I dislike putting my money in behind.

Second, if he only has overs, he is going to fold to my raise and call if he has a pocket pair. Raising gives me a small bit if folding equity, which I believe is not worth it if I'm wrong, which is will some % of the time.

Third, I'm out of position. I'd have to continue my bet on the turn, and then would have to fold to a raise and be out even more chips.

Fourth, If I am correct like I believe I am, he will continue adding chips into the pot, and on the river I'm likely to face the largest bet. He has AKd and is ahead. I check and call the flop. A good card comes on the turn for me, he bets I call. A river diamond comes he bets I fold.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot with that I have 47% equity in (if he does have axd).

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$+ pot that I have 22% equity in (if he has an overpair). If my 2 pair or trips, or straight come I win a lot more then just 900$, so I just added a +.

It costs me 170$ to win a 900$ pot that I have 77% equity in (if he has what he actually did)

---

How is it bad if he folds overcards? This is like saying "I didn't want to bet my overpair because he'd just fold his flush draw." You chose to gamble all the way to the river with a marginal hand, which is ok, I guess, but most people would prefer not to.

Also, you said that he'll call a flop check-raise with an overpair, and that'll you'll have to continue your bet on the turn. This makes no sense. If he calls your flop raise and you infer he has an overpair, why can't you just check-fold on the turn knowing that you're probably way behind and will have a difficult time bluffing him out?

There are probably a variety of ways to play this hand, but you have to admit that yours gave you almost no read on his hand, and left you calling huge bets on a pure guess.

And your math doesn't make any sense either. How could you possibly risk only $170 in a heads-up pot to win $900? You're obviously going to have to risk at least what you expect to win if you're correct.

---

It makes full sense. I have to call a 50$ flop bet and 120$ turn bet = 170$. If the river comes and is a diamond JQKA I fold. If it is my gin card I check raise, if it is a blank I check call. I'm risking 170$.

---

You check-call what on the river? A $0 bet (since you're only risking $170 in the hand) which somehow causes the pot to have $900 in it?

You are correct that on the flop and turn you have only risked around $170, but the pot doesn't contain $900 on the turn. It contains $900 on the river after you call a substantial bet, at which point you've risked more than $170. This is pretty simple.

---

Re-read what I said you are missing the point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Sigh... And people wonder why all the better players stop posting here. I clearly outlined my play, yet you refuse to read it and just all out bash.

---

I'm not bashing you. I'm telling you the hand was played badly. As for refusing to read your outline, I certainly didn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

First off, like someone said I'm still behind. I dislike putting my money in behind.

---

If you're going to play ball, then you have to raise to protect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Second, if he only has overs, he is going to fold to my raise and call if he has a pocket pair.

---

So get him to fold. I see what you're trying to do in the hand. You're trying to extract bluff money from an overaggressive opponent while holding what you believe is the best hand. This isn't the spot for it. If this opponent has the habit of continuing to bet into better hands unimproved, then there will be plenty of other spots that hold less risk. Why take such a slow play risk here when it's obvious you'll be able to grind this opponents stack off over time? Raise the damn hand or fold. It's vulnerable, and you need to confirm your opponents holdings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Third, I'm out of position. I'd have to continue my bet on the turn, and then would have to fold to a raise and be out even more chips.

---

So getting committed out of position without info is different how? This is just one more reason you should pick a better spot. Your opponent is obviously overaggressive in your mind. You'll have his stack anyway if he's that reckless.

I know what you're saying. It's the old "Call down so your aggressive opponent doesn't put you to a decision by dropping the hammer on a bluff when you re-raise." Well if your opponent is one that would make this kind of move, then this opponent is also one who will give you his stack later on by putting you to an easy decision. Raise or fold this time. Do not call. It's incorrect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by doggz

Fourth, If I am correct like I believe I am, he will continue adding chips into the pot, and on the river I'm likely to face the largest bet. He has AKd and is ahead. I check and call the flop. A good card comes on the turn for me, he bets I call. A river diamond comes he bets I fold.

---

Opponents that tend to add chips to a pot unimproved are opponents you OWN anyway, so why pick a bad spot? There's no reason to risk anything. This opponent will pay you off on your good hands. No reason to seek tweener opportunities such as standing on 6's. The risk potentially prolongs your inevitable domination of a flawed opponent. You could completely destroy your session against an inferior opponent if he has an overpair. Why open yourself up to that when you OWN him?

I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm just saying your risk is improper and unneccesary. If your going to play that hand, you have to raise. Against an overaggressive opponent, I fold and wait for better spots. Against a less aggressive opponent, you raise for info and know you won't be put to a decision unless you're beat.

i think rondavu has pretty much covered everything there... and take what he says seriously, he's a damn good player. And its never about bashing.. have you read the sticky? "expect a critical analysis of your play" No one means to insult you, only to help.

You really have to watch it with reads, i've done the same thing myself, you make a play and think you made a fantastic read when you win the pot. Then i look at the hand history and realise how much i fucked it up.

I think you're probably a great player doggz, since you're playing at these stakes. The thing is an aggressive player will tilt you. They get you to start calling down weak, and you get drained by the game. You can't defeat aggression by playing weak loose. That's what aggression strives to do to you. You defeat it by playing weak tight.

This guy was a genuine maniac, but many people are chamelions. They are manic to tilt, and then tight to drain you when they prime your emotions. I know because I do it. Don't get played like that. Let aggression pay you off, and allow it to run rampant as long as you're treading water waiting for something to sink your teeth into. Don't let it affect you.

I've always thought of Poker as Martial Arts. You use your opponents momentum against them. If they push you pull. If they pull you push. Calling down weak equates to pushing when they're pushing.