Gettin' Killed, Must Warn the Others!

Well, I don't think I need to warn anyone, just wanted to get your attention. I need some advice, some feedback, some drugs,...

Here's the story so far. I started with 150 smackaroos August 01 which swelled up to 200 plus over about 2 - 3 weeks. (Note that I've had other starting bankrolls but have cashed out and done other stupid things, this is just the latest, and the one which I want to treat very seriously).

About three weeks ago I dropped down to 150 again in about three days. I regrouped a bit, but still dropped another 20 and have been hovering around 120 to 130 for the last week or so. I just cannot break above that barrier of late.

I've been playing a variety of games, $2 and $10 NL, and .25/.50 and .10/20 limit. Not too much of the $10 NL, in fact, just a handfull of games. This is all on Paradise.

Oh, and I've finally bought PT and have been shocked at what I see. I had about 5000 hands stored up from over the past few months and I'm a loser! A bad loser.

Now, I should say, it's not ALL bad. I'm pretty good at $2 NL. I'm making about 36BB/100 hands. (Yes, thirty six). I was making money at $10NL until a very cold streak along with some moronic play brought my stats there down to losing 6BB/100. (That's over about 1000 hands).

What kills me is the .10/.20 limit games. Losing about 6BB/100 over more than 3200 hands. .25/.50 was almost break even until yesterday, but now I'm pushing 4BB/100 in the lose category.

My foundation in limit, which is based on Sklansky's SSHE book, has been shaken. I am very uncertain that that advice is suited to micro-limit games.

I play a tight game. Of late I've been paying great attention to what I'm doing, in part 'cause I've given up the demon booze. As a matter of fact, things have gotten worse since I've stopped drinking, but that's another post, methinks.

Anyhow, I get crucified by players playing: any ace, any face card, any suited cards, and suited and unsuited connectors (from 0 to 3 gappers). My pre-flop raises just build up the pot for someone to flop two pair (K4 off, for instsance, are his pocket cards) on the river to my pair of kings or aces. My three of a kind, likewise, loses to a straight or a flush (say, 37 suited).

I could say that I'm having a bad run, but am I? Xanadu says he kills the limits that I play at Paradise. What I find is that when I win a bit, the blinds take my winnings away and then a couple of big losses (see above) put me well into the negatives. In fact, if I look at my game stats, most times, I've won a greater % of games than I've lost, but my bankroll is not reflecting that. In other words, I'm paying off guys and gals holding what I consider cards of fecal worth.

Should I start playing the aforementioned cards, too? I'm afraid that would be the beginning of the end, but it's what I seem to always be losing to.

Another point is that taking inspiration from aokwrongly's Counter-play strategy has been very useful. Tight passive/aggressive (aggressive only at the end when I've got a pretty decent hand) has been giving me good results in the $2 NL game.

I gotta say, that I'm pretty happy with my $2 NL results, and there I play SUPER tight. That is surely something positive to build on, but I don't want to give up on limit just yet. It bugs the crap out of me that I can't beat that game.

Sorry for the length of this, but I wanted to be as detailed as possible.

Oh, and I'm leaving for a week of vacation so I probably will not be able to see the results of this post until next Thursday, but I'll thank those of you who post replies in advance.

Later,

Jigs

P.S. I know that some of the advice will be to just stick to $2 NL games, but I want to grow as a player!

Probably a streak of cold cards...
But seriously, don't play crappy hands. Hold up SSH, look in the table and play EXACTLY the hands it says to play from THAT EXACT POSITION AND NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE POT

Also, are you betting your draws? If you just wait for a made hand you're losing a lot of value which is WHY you have smaller pots when you finally win a hand. With the SSH recommendations you should have NO problem with the blinds because those recommendations are pretty loose - they are made for loose tables, after all.

Are you calling down and raising preflop enough? Maybe post some stats?

You have a very inconsistent game that's your problem. You make decisions based on what's going on around you, the types of tables your at, etc. I can sense it in your post. You're playing NL and Limit - which are wildly different games.

There's NOTHING that can be gleaned from your game if you're mixing whatever you want to play at the time. "oh i think i'll play some of this, now i'll play a table of that". Add to that the fact that you're playing different limits differently "I play $2NL SuperTight" means that you're playing other stakes differently. If you're not consistently playing all tables the same then you can't know what's happening by your Bankroll. When you're bounding around in stakes then you can't know what's happening by your Bankroll.

I'll tell you what to do, but here's a caveat. If you play poker for fun and as a hobby and a way to blow off steam, then who cares? Play whatever, whenever, whereever you want. It's still cheaper than GOLF! But, if you want to get good, then it takes a 4 letter word DISC... plus some more letter IPLINE (6 MORE... it's a 10 letter word!!!)

Step 1, play either NL or Limit and play the same stakes all the time.
Step 2, make written instructions that you have to follow - this is your starting hand chart, and how you play different situations, hands, etc. I don't care what it says, just that it takes 95% of what's going to happen into consideration and THAT YOU FOLLOW IT 100% OF THE TIME.
3. Record every hand you're involved in - write it down - position, action, cards, results, your feelings about it, and whether you followed your instructions or not.
4. review and decide if the results were what you anticipated. (after each 1000 - 2000 hands) Identify horrible beats as what they are and forget about them. See if you should change your instructions. Where are the holes or leaks in your game, tighten them up, change your plan and go execute it for another 2000 hands - recording everything.

You do this for a couple months and you'll be able to teach a class on poker. Don't do it and you'll be asking yourself this same questions for the rest of your life.
5.

Aok, thanks muchly for that.

I've just returned from a week away and that meant a week away from poker, which is great. Didn't miss it at all, either.


Yes, I want to get better as a player and I kind of thought that my rather random tabling techniques were part of the problem, but to hear it from someone more knowledgeable is the kick in the ass that I needed.

I've printed up your points and posted them next to my PC. Starting the instruction manual after posting this. It's a great idea. Why didn't I think of it?

In my defence, I'll just say that I play NL super tightly, and Limit very tightly. I do stick to SSH starting hands for limit, ususally opting for the "Tight Table" suggestions. I just tighten up considerably for NL.

But anyhow, we'll see what's going to work.

I'm going to stick with the $2NL for 1000 more hands and will post my results after that.

Cheers,

Jigs

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Of late I've been paying great attention to what I'm doing, in part 'cause I've given up the demon booze. As a matter of fact, things have gotten worse since I've stopped drinking, but that's another post, methinks.

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It's not the alcohol, rather your attitude and confidence level.

If you are following the tight SSH starting charts you should be in a very good position post flop to make money at the .10/.20 and .25/.50 tables at paradise. So you should be working on your post flop game. Each hand must be analyzed after the flop, and if you have a strong hand or better (as Miller and Sklansky describe them), you should be very aggressive after the flop unless you have a reason not to. Good post flop play takes a lot more thinking and analysis than preflop play. Read the SSH chapters on post flop play and pay attention to 'the way to think about what's going on with a hand'. The reason I love SSH so much is that it's not just a series of examples (at first glance much of it seems to be), the authors are constantly trying to show you how to think about a poker hand and play it well based on all the information you have. Poker is a game of information ... but all the information in the world can't help you if you don't know how to figure out what that information means with respect to properly playing a hand of poker. Listen to aok too ... his advice goot.

X-man, your reply is sound, but DaNuts, hit the nail on the head.

Ever since (well, maybe longer than that) I had my most recent losing streak, I've lost all confidence and become a tight/passive/aggressive (only aggressive when I feel I have a big hand) player.

I realised that before, and even more so since I've got some feedback to this post, though I don't want to sound like a suck. Posting is useful, even if some of the advice is predictable (not to say that either one of your comments was (gee, that sounds sucky)).

"Attitude and confidence", that's the root cause of my latest downturn, but as far as the large etching goes, more analysis and discipline, as per Mr. Aok's reply is the ticket.

Xanadu, to be perfectly frank, you got me to thinking that I could shatter the limit games at Paradise. Maybe in time I will. But it also got me into a dither. I started putting the car in front of the tow truck, if you know what I mean.

I'm going to stick with no-limit for a while (at least 1000 hands) and see what happens. I'm going to use PT to customise SSH's starting hand strategy to one of my own. I'm going to spend time analysing hands where I see the flop, and see what's going on. Probably most importantly, playing at the limit where I'm comfortable will help bring back the aggression and the confidence that I need. I feel comfortable at the $2 tables.

Yeah, I know, it's like playing nickel slots, but as was said in Walking Tall, "Ya gotta learn to crawl before ya can walk," or words to that effect.

Jigs

I also recommend a slightly larger bankroll in order to feel more at ease.$200 seems like a small bankroll.Def focus on one limit too,cause Limit and NL are two totally different games.

Hmm,... I know Theo Fluery from the Calgary Flames, wondering it you're a hockey fan, then?

Yeah, I'm not a rich dude, just a strugglin' single income family dude. On a whim I could put up 1000 bucks, but why bother when I can't even manage with 150?

A 150 'roll at the $2 NL tables is fine. I'm really comfortable with losing 4 or 8 bucks in a session, though that hasn't happened as of yet.

As the Internet is my witness, what I want to do is build up to 250 bucks JUST playing $2 NL tables. That's my goal. I stand at 130 or so now, I believe.

I haven't played again since vacation since I haven't finished my instructions, as per Aok's advice.. I'll finsish them when I'm back at the office tomorrow. Why not get paid for doing it, eh?

Jigs

P.S. As a side note, one of the major draws to no-limit is the fact that I can set the odds when I have a good hand. I find that there are less suck-outs in NL (even at the $2 tables) than in limit. However, my "schooling" in poker reading is pretty much only for limit. Any good no-limit sites or books out there?

P.P.S. Yes, in NL there a more otrageous bluffs, but that is not so demoralising as seeing someone beat your pair of aces by just calling with 2J off, know what I mean? (And yes, there is a slight pun in there if you read closely).

I have to agree with everyone else. Find a game and stick with it for a while. Dont try to apply limit starting hands and strategies to NL, they're just not the same game. IMO tightening up when you play NL more so than you do when you play limit is a recipe for disaster. Limit is all about showing down the best cards, NL is about not having to showdown anything.

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Originally Posted by melinda27

Dont try to apply limit starting hands and strategies to NL, they're just not the same game. IMO tightening up when you play NL more so than you do when you play limit is a recipe for disaster. Limit is all about showing down the best cards, NL is about not having to showdown anything.

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I agree that limit and NL are 2 different beasts, BUT at low levels, playing tight, making a hand and then dropping Fnord's F***ing hammer works just fine. Most of the others on the table don't even notice your style. all it takes is discipline and patience and will win 9/10 times on low buyin tables.

NL, the way you describe Melinda, is for higher stakes when your opponents know when to put down TPTK not the kind of games the original poster is in, when middle pair will call you to the river.

If there was one single sentence of advice I would give to a $25NL player, it's this: ALMOST ALL YOUR OPPONENTS WILL CALL TO THE RIVER WITH TOP PAIR WEAK KICKER REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU BET. As long as you can play with this in mind, you will win.

I, being the "original poster", can attest to the fact that tight is right at my NL tables.

PT results have me winning 30+ BB/100 hands playing much tighter than I would at limit.

I suspect, too, that bluffing is much more useful in the flesh than online. Eye contact, gestures and vocalisations can surely affect the psychology of an oppenent when pushing all-in with 38 off, right?


Jigs

Beating those $2 NL at paradise is pretty simple. The biggest mistake being made time and again at those tables is calling way too loosely on all streets. So basically, all you have to do is put yourself in a position to take advantage of that ... you want situations where you can get a lot of money in the pot when you have much the better of it compared to the range of calling hands at the table.

Bet very big with premium hands preflop ... as big as you can and still get action. And don't overlook the preflop all-in.

Play good drawing hands a lot preflop for cheap as the table allows. You will be using position here. I'll limp mid-suited connectors and any pair from any position unless I am constantly forced to fold to a raise. The 2 cents is cheaper at this stake than the blinds at higher stakes because usually the betting is a lot higher compared with the stacks. If there is typically a 5-10xBB raise preflop, and this raise tends to get called a lot, then you will be able to play your good hands for more money preflop, and make more money when you hit your drawing hands on the flop. It's like you're really playing for a higher stake, so that makes the 2 cents a very small investment if you have to fold. Also, since a raise is usually called by several people, you will more often be able to play these hands profitably for a raise. Position is also huge for playing the drawing hands more to add some profit. Don't forget to check your opponents' stack sizes when playing low pairs and connectors. If 3 people are in for a raise of .15, and 2 of them only have another .20 left, your implied odds go way down because of the limit on how much you can win.

Once you get to the flop, make value bets when you are certain you are a favorite to make money with your hand. And push the limits here ... you need to find out what people will call with their crap. Find that psychological limit at the table you are at.

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Originally Posted by Jiggus

I, being the "original poster", can attest to the fact that tight is right at my NL tables.

PT results have me winning 30+ BB/100 hands playing much tighter than I would at limit.

I suspect, too, that bluffing is much more useful in the flesh than online. Eye contact, gestures and vocalisations can surely affect the psychology of an oppenent when pushing all-in with 38 off, right?


Jigs

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I have 20BB/100 in low stakes limit games, but that doesn't mean that's the true rate. We are both running good in the short term, but after a few dozen thousand hands the win rate is likely to change :O