how'd i play my flopped boat

PokerStars Game #2581656420: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2005/09/15 - 14:10:30 (ET)
Table 'Cursa' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Cards2Good ($1.60 in chips)
Seat 2: freshpotato ($3.15 in chips)
Seat 3: pippster33 ($3.55 in chips)
Seat 4: edudlive ($3.35 in chips)
Seat 5: pegasus419 ($3.15 in chips)
Seat 6: aedsross ($7.65 in chips)
freshpotato: posts small blind $0.05
pippster33: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to edudlive [Ts Tc]
edudlive: calls $0.10
pegasus419: folds
aedsross: calls $0.10
Cards2Good: folds
freshpotato: calls $0.05
pippster33: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qh Qd Td]
freshpotato: checks
pippster33: bets $0.10
edudlive: raises $0.20 to $0.30
aedsross: folds
freshpotato: folds
pippster33: calls $0.20
*** TURN *** [Qh Qd Td] [5h]
pippster33: checks
edudlive: checks
*** RIVER *** [Qh Qd Td 5h] [Jd]
pippster33: bets $0.50
edudlive: raises $1.50 to $2
pippster33 said, "do you have a q"
edudlive said, "no"
pippster33: folds
edudlive collected $1.95 from pot
edudlive: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2 | Rake $0.05
Board [Qh Qd Td 5h Jd]
Seat 1: Cards2Good (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: freshpotato (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: pippster33 (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 4: edudlive collected ($1.95)
Seat 5: pegasus419 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: aedsross folded on the Flop

I checked the turn hoping he'd hit his flush (since I thought he was on that draw), he later said he had ace 5 (not diamonds)

fine, he didn't have a hand to pay you off with

Why did you raise the flop?

I think he means why did you raise the flop? That's what i wanna know too. No need to scare villain away if he's holding a T. Smooth call, let him think you're drawing, let him keep doing the betting for you. He migth even have a Q and pay you off in a bit.

Indeed, don’t tip your hand. You want him confident that he has the best hand so that he will call your river bet.

I have to disagree with you guys. Raising the flop isn't bad at all; unless you're absolutely sure the other guy doesn't have a Q, the main hand paying you off here is Qx, where x does not equal a kicker that is also present on the board. Qx is going to pay you off just as easily on the flop and perhaps moreso than on other streets, because Qx is probably somewhat afraid of the flush too.

Why put your money in later when a scare card for your opponent can hit when you can put it in now? If you raise here, Qx will either a) reriase you (most likely) or b) call . No way Qx folds here, so you're getting action.

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Why did you raise the turn?

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Because I did it every hand I had that saw a flop, won me most pots, so deviating from that MIGHT tip someone off (granted this low it probably wont) but it was worth a shot.

Raising on the flop is a good play. The only hands that are going to pay you off are a queen or a flush draw / flush, and these hands are willing to call money into the pot or even reraise on the flop. Slow-playing doesn't make sense when your opponent is going to pay you off if you don't anyways (unless he is weak, in which case you aren't forgoing much by not slow-playing anyways).

Also, from the perspective of a player with a lone queen, his hand appears much stronger on the flop than it will on later streets since on the turn and river there are more ways he can be beaten than on the flop. So, your opponent will be most confident in his hand on the flop, unless he makes queens full. And you'll be faced with decisions if a J, K or similar card comes on a later street and you may cost yourself money.

I don't understand why you checked behind on the turn. I'd expect him to have at least a flush draw, meaning he's willing to call money into the pot. Why didn't you let him?

Oh come on guys, haven't you ever played a flopped house on a draw board before? DO NOT RAISE THE FLOP. Here's why...

He could have..

1) The Case Ten
2) Straight draw
3) Flush Draw
4) Underpocket (88-99)
5) Qx

You don't raise the flop, because you instantly minimize the hands that will pay you off now AND on later streets. You almost have to assume he has the Q to get action, and if he does have the Q, it's not going anywhere anyway. So why raise?

I find that someone hold trips will pay off a straight or flush anyway, so why are you worried about 4th and 5th scaring the opponent?

Flopping a boat on a two suited board where 2 of these 4 cards are present.. QJKT, is the most ideal sloooow play opportunity ever. This is not a hand where you worry about late streets scaring your opponent. There's more of a chance they will help with the straight and flush draw present. Even a Ten or an underpair might remain modestly confident until raised.

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Raising on the flop is a good play. The only hands that are going to pay you off are a queen or a flush draw / flush, and these hands are willing to call money into the pot or even reraise on the flop. Slow-playing doesn't make sense when your opponent is going to pay you off if you don't anyways (unless he is weak, in which case you aren't forgoing much by not slow-playing anyways).

Also, from the perspective of a player with a lone queen, his hand appears much stronger on the flop than it will on later streets since on the turn and river there are more ways he can be beaten than on the flop. So, your opponent will be most confident in his hand on the flop, unless he makes queens full. And you'll be faced with decisions if a J, K or similar card comes on a later street and you may cost yourself money.

I don't understand why you checked behind on the turn. I'd expect him to have at least a flush draw, meaning he's willing to call money into the pot. Why didn't you let him?

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My reasoning was that he had the flush draw. I wanted to both show weakness and allow him to hit his flush. I'd rather let him have his free card (and hit his flush) so that he'll get destacked than get another $0.50 into the pot and him fold like he did on the river. Granted, I do agree betting on the turn is a good idea (since my boat is still easily defeated by queens full), but based on my reads of the guy (fish, any two suited), I felt letting him draw to what I thought was a flush draw was my best bet

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Originally Posted by edudlive

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Why did you raise the flop?

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Because I did it every hand I had that saw a flop, won me most pots, so deviating from that MIGHT tip someone off (granted this low it probably wont) but it was worth a shot.

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So you never saw a flop you didn't like? You had to of checked at some point when the flop was slaughtering you.

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

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Originally Posted by edudlive

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

Why did you raise the flop?

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Because I did it every hand I had that saw a flop, won me most pots, so deviating from that MIGHT tip someone off (granted this low it probably wont) but it was worth a shot.

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So you never saw a flop you didn't like? You had to of checked at some point when the flop was slaughtering you.

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Honestly? Not really, I was playing good hands only, so unless I'm holding QQ to an AKx flop, I was leading out with a bet, and more often than not it worked...and in the few cases in which they decided to stand up to me, I let go of my hand (assuming I WAS 'bluffing' that hand) and kept turning profit from all the times they wouldn't stand up

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Originally Posted by edudlive

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Raising on the flop is a good play. The only hands that are going to pay you off are a queen or a flush draw / flush, and these hands are willing to call money into the pot or even reraise on the flop. Slow-playing doesn't make sense when your opponent is going to pay you off if you don't anyways (unless he is weak, in which case you aren't forgoing much by not slow-playing anyways).

Also, from the perspective of a player with a lone queen, his hand appears much stronger on the flop than it will on later streets since on the turn and river there are more ways he can be beaten than on the flop. So, your opponent will be most confident in his hand on the flop, unless he makes queens full. And you'll be faced with decisions if a J, K or similar card comes on a later street and you may cost yourself money.

I don't understand why you checked behind on the turn. I'd expect him to have at least a flush draw, meaning he's willing to call money into the pot. Why didn't you let him?

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My reasoning was that he had the flush draw. I wanted to both show weakness and allow him to hit his flush. I'd rather let him have his free card (and hit his flush) so that he'll get destacked than get another $0.50 into the pot and him fold like he did on the river. Granted, I do agree betting on the turn is a good idea (since my boat is still easily defeated by queens full), but based on my reads of the guy (fish, any two suited), I felt letting him draw to what I thought was a flush draw was my best bet

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If you're going to let him draw on 4th street, then again I ask... why did you raise the flop? You wanted to show weakness? You already blew it man when you raised the flop in a van down by the river.

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

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Originally Posted by edudlive

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Raising on the flop is a good play. The only hands that are going to pay you off are a queen or a flush draw / flush, and these hands are willing to call money into the pot or even reraise on the flop. Slow-playing doesn't make sense when your opponent is going to pay you off if you don't anyways (unless he is weak, in which case you aren't forgoing much by not slow-playing anyways).

Also, from the perspective of a player with a lone queen, his hand appears much stronger on the flop than it will on later streets since on the turn and river there are more ways he can be beaten than on the flop. So, your opponent will be most confident in his hand on the flop, unless he makes queens full. And you'll be faced with decisions if a J, K or similar card comes on a later street and you may cost yourself money.

I don't understand why you checked behind on the turn. I'd expect him to have at least a flush draw, meaning he's willing to call money into the pot. Why didn't you let him?

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My reasoning was that he had the flush draw. I wanted to both show weakness and allow him to hit his flush. I'd rather let him have his free card (and hit his flush) so that he'll get destacked than get another $0.50 into the pot and him fold like he did on the river. Granted, I do agree betting on the turn is a good idea (since my boat is still easily defeated by queens full), but based on my reads of the guy (fish, any two suited), I felt letting him draw to what I thought was a flush draw was my best bet

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If you're going to let him draw on 4th street, then again I ask... why did you raise the flop? You wanted to show weakness? You already blew it man when you raised the flop in a van down by the river.

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Have to agree there, I got too excited.

I don't understand. Why give him a free card when he's willing to pay for it?

You can still bet an amount which "lets him draw." That's the whole idea, you give him the right odds to draw dead.

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

I don't understand. Why give him a free card when he's willing to pay for it?

You can still bet an amount which "lets him draw." That's the whole idea, you give him the right odds to draw dead.

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I agree. My point is that you should keep him in the hand. Certainly a value bet wouldn't hurt those plans.

I'll have to keep this in mind next time