TPTK-YOU make the call

PokerStars Game #2616854093: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/09/19 - 23:12:12 (ET)
Table 'Melanie' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: noName666 ($40.10 in chips)
Seat 2: Prglf98 ($10.30 in chips)
Seat 3: herman23 ($12.50 in chips)
Seat 4: BoostinMr2 ($23 in chips)
Seat 5: treeratt ($9.25 in chips)
Seat 6: AAv23o/s ($29.35 in chips)
Seat 7: nerdking ($27.05 in chips)
Seat 8: jas1961 ($6.70 in chips)
Seat 9: pdk01 ($20.05 in chips)
BoostinMr2: posts small blind $0.10
treeratt: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nerdking [Jc Ks]
AAv23o/s: folds
nerdking: raises $0.50 to $0.75
jas1961: calls $0.75
pdk01: folds
noName666: folds
Prglf98: calls $0.75
herman23: folds
BoostinMr2: calls $0.65
treeratt: folds
*** FLOP *** [9d Jd 3s]
BoostinMr2: checks
nerdking: bets $1.75
jas1961: folds
Prglf98: folds
BoostinMr2: calls $1.75
*** TURN *** [9d Jd 3s] [9c]
BoostinMr2: checks
nerdking: bets $2.50
BoostinMr2: calls $2.50
*** RIVER *** [9d Jd 3s 9c] [Th]
BoostinMr2: checks
nerdking: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BoostinMr2: shows [6d 5d] (a pair of Nines)
nerdking: shows [Jc Ks] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
nerdking collected $11.20 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $11.75 | Rake $0.55
Board [9d Jd 3s 9c Th]
Seat 1: noName666 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Prglf98 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: herman23 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: BoostinMr2 (small blind) showed [6d 5d] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 5: treeratt (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: AAv23o/s folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: nerdking showed [Jc Ks] and won ($11.20) with two pair, Jacks and Nines
Seat 8: jas1961 folded on the Flop
Seat 9: pdk01 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Don't play KJo UTG+1.

I don't see a problem with checking behind.

Is there any real decision in this thread?

Seems like pretty straightforward hand.

I, for one, don't see a problem with playing this starting hand in a $25 NL game.

My only criticism to offer is that you don't seem to be betting enough. The pot is $3 after the flop and you only bet $1.75 - you're laying the guy almost 3-1 odds + whatever implied odds he figures he has. On the turn the pot is now $6.5, and you only bet $2.5? You're giving the guy almost 4-1 odds.

I was wondering what was wrong with KJ os, myself. It seemed like a fairly broad statement, "don't play UTG +1". This was sort of an intro post. My main concern was that the guy had AJ or the third nine. That's why I eased up on the throttle on the river. That and I didn't see the two diamonds on the flop.

If you're going to let your fear of AJ make you timid with KJ, then don't play it.

When you play KJ, the flop you want to see is J high (barring two-pair, straight, etc). If you're not going to pump the hand when you get the flop that you want, then you shouldn't be playing it in the first place. I'm not saying that you shouldn't play it - i'd play it in a $25 game (which require much different strategy than even $50 games), regardless of position. I'm just saying that if you're going to play it, play it strong.

At this level, you'll get players calling you all the way with JT, even J3. Every once in a while you'll run into AJ, but in the long run you'll out-kicker more than you'll be out-kickered.

I'm not saying AJ would scare me out of a pot, I'm just saying that i was mindful of it. I guess i posted this hand most of all to see if I was giving the guy the right pot odds to give him the worst for chasing a flush.

Being that I'm mainly playing 25NL and 50NL right now, what would you say is the big downfall of the players in both? What is the major defining characteristic of the two games?

First of all, I should say that I'm no expert. I only started playing seriously a month ago, but have had some success as both the levels you've mentioned. I have, however, only played on Pokerroom.com, so i'm not sure if my observations apply generally, although I suspect that they do.

On Pokerroom.com, the $25 games are the lowest possible. As a result, you have alot of downright fish. People who will play garbage hands like K7 and then stick with them all the way to the river when they hit a king on the flop. They like to call. They seldom raise. They are the ultimate calling stations. When they do get the opportunity to bet with a hand, they don't bet large enough, giving you very good pot odds to chase straights and flushes. While they are very mindful of when a flush is possible (I mean, it's right there in front of them in colour), while they might stop betting, it's usually difficult to successfully represent against these players, as they will usually call when they have any sort of hand. On the other hand, they pay very little attention to straights and will pay them off nicely. On the contrary, when these fish have a draw, they will usually take it, even when you don't give them proper pots odds to do so. They will often be taken all-in on nothing more than a flush draw. When the fish do hit a good hand, alot of them will slowplay too much. They'll slowplay their two-pair right into your higher two-pair, things like that.

By no means are most of the players at the $25 tables like this. But there are almost always two or three at each table. You then have a variety of other players - some who are tight, but too passive - some who are tight but can never fold an overpair or TPTK - and some who are just downright grinding out a nice wage.

I'd say, however, that the defining characteristic of games at this level is a lack of aggression. You seldom see potsize bets. There are far too many check-check-check to the river hands (don't, however, take that as a sign that you can steal the pot, because you usually can't - unless there's only one other player).

The $50 games are a different beast. Most of the players there have generally mastered the fundamentals of starting hand selection, pot odds - and generally you see alot more aggression when somewhat has hit a hand. There's still the occasional downright fish, but they are fewer and farther between. There are usually alot fewer players in on each flop, and players are more liable to fold to a sign of strength. Generally i've found that I can beat these games by adopting a super-aggressive strategy - a strategy that I know would be very unsuccessful if I attempted it in the $25 games (in fact, I have, and it was merely breakeven).

KJ is a much weaker hand than you think, I only play it in late position with mostly/all folds to me, but its your call.

and, as for this hand, if you want to play it, bet more on all streets. preflop raise 4x, then bet ~2/3-3/4 the pot on all streets after. betting 2.50 into a 6.50 pot is no good.

I would open it in an opened pot in middle to late position, I would also limp in an already limped pot in middle to late position, but never UTG.

Limping UTG in a 10-handed ring will just get you in trouble in my opinion.

Since when is a K the top kicker?

when it doesn't get beaten by an ace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nerdking

when it doesn't get beaten by an ace.

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deuce is the top kicker when it doesn't get beaten by another kicker

precisely my point

Top kicker = Ace, if the pair isn't a pair of aces.
Top kicker = King if it's a pair of aces.

You can't say "Oh i have TPTK!" when you have KJ on a J high board...because you don't know if someone is holding AJ.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PokerPatNEU

Top kicker = Ace, if the pair isn't a pair of aces.
Top kicker = King if it's a pair of aces.

You can't say "Oh i have TPTK!" when you have KJ on a J high board...because you don't know if someone is holding AJ.

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He can't say he has top pair top kicker because he doesn't have top pair top kicker.

Lol yeah exactly.

this brings up an interesting point, at least in my mind. How does one solidly play a top pair GOOD kicker while simultaneously scaring off the drawers and did I do that?