$25NL - rock or fancy

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09-22-2005, 04:41 AM
wideboyuk

$25NL - rock or fancy

Bit of background - I have been playing NL for about 6 months now, made a couple of $50 deposits and have worked my roll upto $400, but then I think I got a bit cocky, lossened up a bit too much, and then lost almost all of it. For the last month I have been kinda breakeven, up and down, getting nowhere fast.

I only play 1 table so that I can get a good read on my ops. But I was thinking that maybe I would be better off multi-tabling, and just playing ABC poker, waiting for the good hands, playing aggressively when they hit and laying down when I am clearly beat. I chuck out nice 2/3-pot size bets when I hit and don't give people cheap draws and steal a few pots with a nicely timed continuation bet. Sometimes though I try and get fancy every now and then, and bluff in signs of weakness, only to be called down by midpair who doesn't know how to make a lay down. This kind of action makes me feel that bluffing is a no-no at lowlimit and I should stop all this fancy play and just stick to basics instead of leaking my roll.

So a question to the $25 and $50NL players - should I stop bluffing and just play my cards??
09-22-2005, 05:51 AM

Re: $25NL - rock or fancy

Quote:

Originally Posted by wideboyuk

Bit of background - I have been playing NL for about 6 months now, made a couple of $50 deposits and have worked my roll upto $400, but then I think I got a bit cocky, lossened up a bit too much, and then lost almost all of it. For the last month I have been kinda breakeven, up and down, getting nowhere fast.

I only play 1 table so that I can get a good read on my ops. But I was thinking that maybe I would be better off multi-tabling, and just playing ABC poker, waiting for the good hands, playing aggressively when they hit and laying down when I am clearly beat. I chuck out nice 2/3-pot size bets when I hit and don't give people cheap draws and steal a few pots with a nicely timed continuation bet. Sometimes though I try and get fancy every now and then, and bluff in signs of weakness, only to be called down by midpair who doesn't know how to make a lay down. This kind of action makes me feel that bluffing is a no-no at lowlimit and I should stop all this fancy play and just stick to basics instead of leaking my roll.

So a question to the $25 and $50NL players - should I stop bluffing and just play my cards??

I don't even play NL25 and even I know you have to play your cards there.
09-22-2005, 06:20 AM
biondino

"only to be called down by midpair who doesn't know how to make a lay down"

This is maybe 50% of all players at £25NL level - you have to know who, when and where to bluff if you're going to use it as part of your game, and you also need to know what to bluff with.

If you are playing a weak made hand or draw and think you're bluffing, in reality you're not - you're weakening your position with a mixture of "I'll bluff him out of this pot" and "I might just win anyway with my second pair weak kicker/gutshot straight draw". When you bluff, you play like you've got the nuts - at every street you have the winning hand. Take advantage of that.

Secondly, at this level a continuation bet of traditional proportions will only put off good (or very weak) players. If you want someone with a weak hand to leave the pot, overbet and if they call, check-fold to the river if you don't improve on the next street. If they raise and you don't have a great draw with pot/implied odds, fold - when you come across a show of strength while bluffing, it's almost never a double bluff. Fold with anything less that TPTK.

A pre-flop raise may help your cause by repping strenght, but only against decent players, as it also will mean that your oppo had at very least a decent starting hand, and lots of amateurs will call a raise with A8o, then stick with it when the flop comes 46J because hey, they still have the ace.

I find that bluffing works bets when everyone limps pre-flop. It seldom matters what the board is - unless they hit top pair or two pair, you're probably going to take it down. However, you're also going to be putting your arse on the line for little reward.

Finally, position position position. Position. Never bluff out of position unless you have a VERY good reason for doing so.
09-22-2005, 06:29 AM
fjuanl

Quote:

I find that bluffing works bets when everyone limps pre-flop. It seldom matters what the board is - unless they hit top pair or two pair, you're probably going to take it down.

imo this is the worst time to be bluffing. good luck getting all 6 limpers folding on a random flop
09-22-2005, 07:07 AM
BrokeSucca

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjuanl

Quote:

I find that bluffing works bets when everyone limps pre-flop. It seldom matters what the board is - unless they hit top pair or two pair, you're probably going to take it down.

imo this is the worst time to be bluffing. good luck getting all 6 limpers folding on a random flop

Someone said the same thing to me thismorning. But it works for me constantly in 10c/20c ring and $2 SnGs. Bet into an all limped pot lik you just hit trips and collect the money. Get called and shut it down. But it works a lot for me so far.
09-22-2005, 07:40 AM
Checkways

Re: $25NL - rock or fancy

Quote:

Originally Posted by wideboyuk

Bit of background - I have been playing NL for about 6 months now, made a couple of $50 deposits and have worked my roll upto $400, but then I think I got a bit cocky, lossened up a bit too much, and then lost almost all of it. For the last month I have been kinda breakeven, up and down, getting nowhere fast.

I only play 1 table so that I can get a good read on my ops. But I was thinking that maybe I would be better off multi-tabling, and just playing ABC poker, waiting for the good hands, playing aggressively when they hit and laying down when I am clearly beat. I chuck out nice 2/3-pot size bets when I hit and don't give people cheap draws and steal a few pots with a nicely timed continuation bet. Sometimes though I try and get fancy every now and then, and bluff in signs of weakness, only to be called down by midpair who doesn't know how to make a lay down. This kind of action makes me feel that bluffing is a no-no at lowlimit and I should stop all this fancy play and just stick to basics instead of leaking my roll.

So a question to the $25 and $50NL players - should I stop bluffing and just play my cards??

From what I hear about $25NL, you'll win more money by not bluffing ALONE. Playing multiple tables is always more profitable as long as you can do it.
09-22-2005, 07:43 AM
Checkways

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrokeSucca

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjuanl

Quote:

I find that bluffing works bets when everyone limps pre-flop. It seldom matters what the board is - unless they hit top pair or two pair, you're probably going to take it down.

imo this is the worst time to be bluffing. good luck getting all 6 limpers folding on a random flop

Someone said the same thing to me thismorning. But it works for me constantly in 10c/20c ring and $2 SnGs. Bet into an all limped pot lik you just hit trips and collect the money. Get called and shut it down. But it works a lot for me so far.

I know what you're talking about. Usually you'll bet out of position on a rag flop and watch everyone fold. The reason is because no one has anything and no one cares about the chump change in the middle of the table. They also know that only a dumbass would bluff into six people for practically no money. This is why it works for you.

However, I honestly believe that over time this is not going to be a profitable play. The pot just ain't worth it.
09-22-2005, 08:59 AM
Miffed22001

Bluffing at 25nl is a NO NO.
Its a leak dont do it.
You cant bet scare cards or push people off middle pair it just wont happen. Wait for good cards or good odds, make a hand, bet it hard get paid off.
Do not bluff.
09-22-2005, 09:15 AM
wideboyuk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Bluffing at 25nl is a NO NO.
Its a leak dont do it.
You cant bet scare cards or push people off middle pair it just wont happen. Wait for good cards or good odds, make a hand, bet it hard get paid off.
Do not bluff.

But then don't you get the problem of playing hardly any hands then when finally you do, everyone thinks you have AA and folds?
09-22-2005, 09:16 AM
ilikeaces86

Quote:

Originally Posted by wideboyuk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Bluffing at 25nl is a NO NO.
Its a leak dont do it.
You cant bet scare cards or push people off middle pair it just wont happen. Wait for good cards or good odds, make a hand, bet it hard get paid off.
Do not bluff.

But then don't you get the problem of playing hardly any hands then when finally you do, everyone thinks you have AA and folds?

No because they love their j10 s00ted
09-22-2005, 09:19 AM
Miffed22001

No they now call you down with shit because they dont recognise you havent played a hand in 3 orbits and you just reraised their huge turn bet.
They dont have level two thinking what does my opp have? therefore they dont care if you have AA they have J10 sOOted :D
(nice aces!) :P
09-22-2005, 09:39 AM
biondino

I made a mistake above - I didn't mean bluffing is best when *everyone* limps, I meant when a few people limp BUT no-one raises.

Miffed, you are wrong :) If you can't profitably bluff at £25NL you're not doing it right. I promise.
09-22-2005, 09:41 AM
edudlive

You CAN bluff at 25NL, but I have to admit you'll lose more than you win doing so :lol:
09-22-2005, 10:10 AM
Infamous

You can but it's not a great idea for most players as they can't recognise when they're beat and do now know when to let go of a hand. It's also unnecessary due to the amount of bad players who think their ace high is probably good because the board is low cards.
09-22-2005, 07:22 PM
DBL0SVN

Re: $25NL - rock or fancy

Quote:

Originally Posted by wideboyuk

So a question to the $25 and $50NL players - should I stop bluffing and just play my cards??

yes
09-22-2005, 08:24 PM
nickthefool

It's possible to bluff well at low limits, BUT not often, AND you need a read to do it. It is easier (not to mention safer) to not bluff at all at low limits imo.
09-22-2005, 11:41 PM
BIGandRICH

the ammount of attention and concentration required to successfully bluff at 25NL is huge. Also note that when you bluff you are taking a small pot.. because they all call in the big pots.. "HELL YEH, BIG POT!!!!"

so, the small amount won from good bluffs is really not all that useful, more profitable to play your cards and destack people.
09-23-2005, 02:26 AM
lolzzz_321

If you use an add on to poker tracker, like Poker Ace HUD you can tell who to bluff. Do you see why?
09-23-2005, 03:30 AM
wideboyuk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptanes

If you use an add on to Poker Tracker, like Poker Ace HUD you can tell who to bluff. Do you see why?

People who have a low WSD are more bluffable as they can lay hands down?
09-23-2005, 10:02 AM
Robert

What trip said.

Besides it IS possible to bluff at lowlimit ring - you just have to pick your spots carefully. I normally only bluff with selective continuation bets on the flop and when I know my opp is on a busted draw on the river - someone who busted his draw on the river will almost never call a river bet unless he's a fool (some are, but not enough imo to make it unprofitable). Anyways, the key to bluffing is position, position and position.